Re: Flat tax proposal

From: Johnny Marcos (johnny5_at_yahoo.com)
Date: 07/10/04 

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:11:08 GMT

royls@telus.net wrote in news:40ef048e.11097759@news.telus.net:

> Nope. They are in the boats, the rest of us are treading water.

Look we can go to extremes in either direction, the poor on yachts and
the rich on cruise liners or the rich on wooden rafts and the poor
anchored to the sea floor with cement shoes. What you are in essence
saying is that continued growth - productivity - it kills off some of the
poor - that is right. That is the way the system is designed. We all
want progress, that comes at a cost, the cost being the tide rises and
those able to keep above the tide breathe and those that don't drown and
die.

It is a positive feedback loop, they higher the rich get up in thier
yachts, the smarter and harder the masses have to produce and think and
work to get up into the yachts with them and get out of the small boat.

If you equalize this disparity and don't keep rising the water level or
rise it slowly, progress is slow, rise the water level fast, progress is
fast. Rise the water level too fast people literally die from the rising
level - I see people starving to death on the street, but it's not
because they dont have the chance to get up in the boat, the chance is
there, they are just too lazy or mentally anguished to get up in the boat
- you have to let that person go - if you don't then thier anchor at the
sea floor keeps you from rising too, and as the tides start coming up
around you - you being the smarter richer person - you do things to slow
the rising tide so that the poor lazy bumb doesnt drown taking you down
with him, you slow down the positive feedback loop - to save the life of
the lazy bumb you retard progress. Liberals want to stop progress, and
as the lazy bumbs with concrete shoes grow - progress gets less and less
and can even go negative - the rising tide becomes the falling tide. Now
I think what economics wants to do is rise the tide at a pace where a lot
of poor don't drown. Sounds good to me. You are saying the tide is
rising too fast, I just don't agree. the bumb could go to the library
for FREE and eat for FREE and read books for FREE and become and
economics wizard that makes you look like a fool Roy L - but he chooses
NOT too - he wants more liqour, more crack rock, more exstacy, or just to
remain in his ignorance and do his simple little routines in life until
he dies. Learning is stressful for this person - you cannot FORCE him to
learn. You can only provide the water for the horse. This is what is
fundamentally wrong with liberals. Provide the water, but if the horse
chooses to thirst to death - forget about him and move on. A woman can
choose to come here and READ and LEARN or sit around and watch soap
operas and the tv show friends all day - I know what most women choose.
They don't feel they need to learn, daddy will always take care of them
and learning gets in the way of FUN.

Fear seems to be a good motivator for getting that tide to rise - fear
you are not keeping up with the joneses or are gonna drown motivates
people to be productive - take that away - you got the plains indians, no
progress, but no one opressing another person. Oppression is a necessary
evil to motivate progress. The poor are not anchored to the sea floor
with concrete shoes however - maslows hierarchy says you have to provide
base services to people before they can be productive in new ways.

Food is the fundamental base - the bumb at the bus station wanted some
food, I told her where it was for free, she wanted me to go get it, I
wouldn't, she will starve to death. Her laziness will kill her even
though the fundamental base is there. Physiological Needs met, safety
needs next, you need to be secure that you wont be harmed and the
physiological needs and others are going to be met always into the
future.

The Cisco Kid living next door to me - he came here illegally, got a job
working for a cable company making 3 bucks an hour, had a 500 dollar car,
was so HAPPY because he came from a place in mexico where he literally
was going to starve to death. Then he got him a loan for a NEW ford VAN
that cost like 25K - he goes to the casino in tampa now with his free
time, not the library, not here, I do not feel sorry for him that he is
being oppressed or has no chances and the evil rich landowner he rents
from his fucking him - yet he is collecting money for FOOD STAMPS - why?

>>- they are the first
>>adopters of new expensive gadgets and technology
>
> Because they have the money. Duh.

They have the money because they usually did something productive for
themselves and society in the past. The positive feedback loop.

>>- they provide the
>>incentive for the free market - you invent something new so you can
>>sell it to the rich to get thier money at high prices - then as time
>>progresses - more people buy it, more competitors produce it, the
>>better and cheaper it gets for the masses.
>
> That would happen just as well if the rich had less and the rest of us
> had commensurately more.

No the pace of the rising tide can either be slow or fast or negative -
you want balance in a way that slows things down I think. Bill Gates did
a lot of work younger, it took effort to steal all those ideas and unite
them and then provide them to the public cheaply - this made him RICH -
now that money goes into helping poor people, new technology, usability
studies that makes things easy for dumb people or are you using Linux
instead of Windows? He has publicly stated he will not leave more than
10 million to his hiers and donate all the rest to charity - what do you
want Roy L? The richest man in the world is not impeding progress, he is
innovating like crazy, but he predicted in 1984 that IBM had become to
overbearing on the industry and was stifling innovation and that he would
come along and move the rising tide faster - he did - and now if MSFT
becomes too stifling of innovation - others will come and get rich
replacing him. The system works, the positive feedback loop works,
everyone that CHOOSES to do so has new things to use like the internet -
you want to make fundamental changes to the positive feedback loop and
you have not convinced me with any empirical data that those changes are
the best thing. Why fix what aint broke? You say it's broke, we need
heavy taxes on the rich, if the people agree they will vote and changes
will be made. You say no wage slavery, once you stop producing or
innovating you die - you are on an down moving escalator - running up it
- the bottom of that escalator is hell and death - and the top is heaven
- I choose to run up the escalator against its movement because I believe
once I get to the top of it I can sit on my ass for awhile and watch the
people below me run up the escalator too - the ultimate outcome of the
changes you advocate seem to me to be to teach the public the moment you
stop running up the escalator you sink into hell as it rides you down and
you die.

http://www.bornsloppy.co.uk/Underground%20Mayhem%202.wmv

Some people want to RIDE down the escalator Roy L, land and wealth is not
thier goal, the ride down is their goal - let them go Roy.

Affirmitave action made the free libraries, but Bill Cosby said they want
a 200 dollar child slave nike and wont walk to the library - what can I
do? Individual effort is part of the problem, lazy dumb people that
don't want to get up and read the free books can't be saved, let them go.

>>- greed is good - it is right and like Gordon Gecko said it takes
>>us all to new heights.
>
> Nope. Only the greedy.

If I put you in a plains indian society, what is your incentive to study
economics and henry george? Lazy people Roy L - here read this article
if you are not too lazy.

 Climbing the white escalator

by Betsy Leondar-Wright

http://newpittsburghcourier.com/?article=4378

“America is a meritocracy,” my father always told me. The harder he
worked, the more money he got: clear cause and effect. From individuals’
prosperity or poverty, he believed he could determine their effort and
talent. Therefore, the poor Black people in a nearby city clearly hadn’t
applied themselves.

My father had a legacy that he couldn’t see, a legacy he only got because
he is white. His ancestor, John Prescott, came from England in 1638. The
Massachusetts Bay Colony granted him land in central
Massachusetts—something no people of color got—and he built the first
sawmill there. As far as I can tell, none of his descendants have ever
been poor. Some of my ancestors moved west to Ohio in the 1800s, where
they may have received land under one of the Homestead Acts—government
programs closed to people of color.

However ROY L today we have cheap mortgages, free internet, the water is
there, but people are LAZY.

More from the article:

Historically, for people of color, the escalator has been broken.
Sometimes they have had to hike up a fast-moving down escalator. No
matter how hard they worked, they rarely got the same rewards as white
people. Their wages were lower, and many neighborhoods and schools were
closed to them. In some eras and places, laws and violence kept them off
the staircase to prosperity entirely.

Government boosts for white people were invisible to my father. He
opposed government handouts as destroying incentives to strive, without
considering the handouts his family had received. In truth, prosperity
comes from a mixture of individual effort and assistance from family and
government. America won’t be a meritocracy until the escalator rises at
the same speed for everyone.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/cabinet.html Here are pictures of
the presidents cabinet if you are not too lazy too look.

  I see black men, chinese women, mexico boy, condoleeza rice - who is
being oppressed that they can't get out of it without some work ROY L?
Laziness can beat greed, the bumb was too lazy to walk over and get the
free food, she dies.

Mexico boy next door to me can get rich if he were to learn more and
apply himself, but he is happy going to the casino every weekend and
blowing his paycheck. I am not, I want to get to a point where I can
step off the 9 to 5 elevator. Don't hate my ambition.

>>- they weren't very oppressed, but todays society is an opressive
>>one - and the only way to escape this oppression is to invent and grow
>>and produce to get rich yourself and then you opress the little ones -
>>then one of them must change something to escape his oppression and
>>get rich and up and up it goes in a positive feedback loop
>
> Nope. Landowners and other rent collectors don't have to contribute a
> thing.

They did in the past though, that is how they got rich and became
landowners, my friend does not own 3 trailers because he is a bumb, he
was the worker ant and the guy next to him was the lazy grasshopper and
has only 1 trailer.

>>you
>>remove the incentive for people to work so damn hard to escape thier
>>perceived slavery. You want to get out of wage slavery - work harder,
>>work smarter than the other guy. In the old days if you wanted the
>>kings power you had to kill him, today it is much more peaceful to
>>replace the powerful over you and more peaceful for you to get
>>replaced.
>
> Why is it that the poor are claimed to work less if they are given
> something for nothing, but the rich are claimed to work more if they
> are given something for nothing?

The guy with three trailers, Mr. Hanson, he worked hard, and ate cheap,
and suffered quality of life in his youth so he could have safe
retirement, the couple next door to him that is getting evicted - they
partied in thier youth, big steaks and martinis, they traded quality of
life in youth for security in old age.

When I am 60 and own 20 rentals, why should I have to help mexico boy
next to me when he is 60 who right now has the same chance I do right now
to invest but is trading his money for partytime at the casino in tampa -
when he is 60 he will be broke and want me to give him one of my free
trailers that I lost quality of life to achieve. I am NOT going to do
it. I offered him the book the millionaire next door, I told him how to
get to the library, I told him this was important for his future, he has
had the book for 4 months and won't read it, I can lead him to water, but
if he doesn't drink I can't do anymore.

To him learning and investing is not fun, casino is fun, his choice.

You want party time and others working for you, and when your resources
go to zero you want the worker ant to share his food with you, if he
doesnt you will starve and get violent and try to take it from his
forcefully, worker ant wants to keep the peace, he gives you some of the
food, but he is gonna keep the LIONS share as well he should.

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