Re: Greenspan says Skills are KILLING us
From: Dave Head (rally2xs_at_att.net)
Date: 07/25/04
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Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 14:28:28 GMT
On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 06:58:03 GMT, Johnny 5 <johnny5@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Dave Head <rally2xs@att.net> wrote in
>news:f1a6g0pebng6gjfusonpmubhe9t5pnjm87@4ax.com:
>
>>>> It's so simple the mind repels: All ya gotta do is PAY the people
>>>> with the skills and the problem is solved.
>>>
>>>In his testimony to congress he said that is happening, the high
>>>skilled wages are GOING UP, the low skilled are not.
>>
>> Oh, such BS!
>
>That is what he Said, you can watch his testimony on www.cspan.org
Maybe when I get high speed access. Right now, I'm living in the 3rd-world
area of the country known as King George, Va. where the power goes off at the
drop of a hat, stores that are open 24 hrs in the rest of the country are not
here, and there is currently no high speed access. The cable company is saying
"by the end of the year", but we'll see...
>- he
>said supervisory positions and high skilled work pay is going up.
Maybe supervisory pay is going up, but highly skilled work pay is going down,
'cuz Indians and other 3rd world workers are doing it for peanuts.
> I can
>see his point - capital one just laid off 1100 people in Tampa,
What sort of job do you suppose they're going to be able to get now?
>but
>probably a few of the supervisors that will be managing the new CHEAP
>LABOR will be making more money than before - at the cost of 1100
>workers. BTW - what's in your wallet?
>http://www.capitalone.com/indexn.shtml
This deserves a boycott, BTW.
>> The highly skilled (computer scientist, engineer, etc.) are going
>> down!
>
>The supervisor at my old position in IBM got a payraise after 7800 people
>were laid off.
What sort of job do you supposed they're going to be able to get now?
>> Go look at the IT section of a big bookstore. It is tiny in
>> comparison to what it was 4 years ago. The reason is that the wages
>> and job availability of these jobs have gone way down, both from the
>> dot-com bubble bursting, and the outsourcing of these jobs to 3rd
>> world countries.
>
>But the supervisory pay has went up.
Big whoop? <G> I think they may eventually land on the "super rich" side of
the equation. Both of 'em...
>> A person would have to be a complete idiot to go into these fields
>> now, especially computer science / IT work.
>
>BWAHAHA! It beats picking tobacco in the fields in the hot sun doesn't
>it?
If you are starving, and you can _not_ get the $100K per year sysadmin job, but
you _can_ get the $6K per year tobacco picking job, and _eat_, the real tobacco
picking job beats the $100K sysadmin job that is built out of unobtanium.
> They likely won't get a
>> job upon graduation, and if they do get that lucky, it will still pay
>> much less than even it used to, let along more than it did last year.
>
>That is the cycle of capitalism and efficiency though isn't it?
Yep - rich get richer, poor get poorer. That is evil, BTW.
>> Environmentalists have chased the manufacturing jobs overseas because
>> pollution laws here make such activity unprofitable.
>
>Child slave labor in sweatshops is cheap - robots cheaper still.
We really need to do something about that child labor thing - we should have
laws that formally boycott _all_ goods produced with child labor - whether that
is here or in some 3rd world country.
>> Now, when we have the government incentivizing moving jobs out of this
>> country via favorable tax situations for using offshore workers, we
>> are left, for the 1st time, without the opportunity to learn something
>> new and get a better job in order to have a better life.
>
>You only look at ONE side of that though, OK so 1100 people at capital
>one got laid off, guess what, they all have capital one credit cards in
>their wallet, the THEORY assumes thier layoff will make products and
>services better and cheaper. Walmart killed MOM AND POP, but I LIKE the
>cheap prices at walmart - and support Walmart to a POINT, that point
>being child slavery where children get killed for not performing in the
>sweatshops - that must be stopped - then walmart costs too much.
Yep, we should get rid of the child labor incentive that we generate, for all
corners of the world, with a formal boycott of all goods and services produced
with child labor.
I like the prices at Wal-mart too. The Mom and Pop stores were nice, but they
closed at 6 PM usually, and Wal-mart is open all night (except in the 3rd-world
area of the USA known as Fredericksburg, Va. where at least the Ferry Farm
store closes at 11 - not sure about the superstore in "Central Park" on the
other side of Fredericksburg, but I don't want to drive 20 miles each way at
that hour anyway. The 14 or so miles to the FF store from my location in King
George County is about my limit for 1:00 AM shopping.)
And Mom and Pop could retrain for some better job. Now that avenue is closing,
with _all_ the better jobs under attack by people from elsewhere that will do
them for half price or less.
> Go ahead and
>> invest thousands of dollars in becoming a hi-tech worker,
>
>Why invest thousands, www.slashdot.org is free, the library is free, the
>internet is free, free learning, why PAY for what you can get for FREE?
WWW.SLASHDOT,ORG is an on-line newspaper, not a university. Universities still
cost a lot of money, and will continue to do so, only probably more than
before.
No on-line education is going to 1) be accepted 2) be complete. You have to
have a university set your curriculum for you - you don't know enough about
what you _should_ learn in order to get the full-pull education you should
have. You probably will think you don't need history - but you do. You
probably wouldn't take a language course - but you should. Etc. You have to
get a real degree to get accepted into a job that requires one - except that
there will be no such jobs for Americans in a decade or 2. They'll all be
occupied by foreign workers.
> and arrive
>> at your new job just in time to train your H1B replacement who is
>> going to do the same job for 1/2 the pay.
>
>Start doing jobs that can't be exported, pulling tobacco requires a
>physical presence.
Yep - that's what _I'm_ saying - super rich and super poor. I know I'm not
going to land on the super-rich side, or wouldn't (except I'm going to retire
from an unexportable job, not open to foreigners coming here (defense), in
about 5 - 8 years, the money will be adequate, and the next generation is going
to have to deal with the joblessness and resulting poverty.)
BTW, the jobs that can't be exported will have foreigners _coming here_ to do
those too, if they pay well. The only jobs likely to be protected is ones you
own yourself. A married couple, both IT workers, got laid off about the same
time, used their savings to buy a lunch-counter in the New York subway system,
and operate that. No foriegn workers are going to be able to attack that
successfully, but had they not already had the money to do that, they'd simply
be unemployed now, or maybe picking tobacco.
>> This country is on a 1-way slide toward having just the super-rich and
>> the very, very poor, with no middle class in between.
>
>The very very poor of today live better than the super rich of 20 years
>ago - I will accept that trade as long as my life keeps getting better
>and better. Let Bill gates have 200 billion and me have 2 dollars if
>that is what it takes for growth and progress and technology.
The very, very poor of today have the same problems they've always had -
eating, staying warm in the winter, etc. The super-rich of 20 years ago were
driving Ferrarris, boating with yachts, etc. This disparity is just going to
get worse. There's going to be _tons_ more people on the "not enough to eat"
side of thing, and even fewer "super-rich" people.
> The only jobs
>> left, beside those for CEO's of multinational corporations, will be
>> the Wal-mart and McDonald's style workers.
>
>Don't work at all, enjoy all this FREE education and luxury we have in
>america -
The free education won't do you any good since the jobs that require it will be
filled by foreigners working at former poverty wages. By then, the poverty
wages will be lower, since stuff really _will_ be cheaper because of these
cheap workers, but not cheap enough to make life good for Americans with _no_
income.
>go watch some FREE movies at the library,
I don't care to watch movies in a library. I watch them in the theater, where
you can make noise commsurate with a machine gun's chatter or a building
falling down in the wake of a volcanic eruption...
>read some FREE books
Always could do that, huh?
>- take it easy citizen - put your feet up and smell the roses.
Still gotta eat, and that won't be easy. Glad I lived in the best timeframe
possible, since the "before" (WW II timeframe) was much more difficult, and the
"after" (year 2010+, or so) will also be much more difficult.
> Any job above the latter
>> minimal-wage jobs will be either shipped overseas or have a foreign
>> worker accepting peanuts for pay in it.
>
>I don't have to WORK to go see a free movie at the library - why do you?
'Cuz I want to take a $1000 scuba vacation to the Caribbean, something I can
easily afford now, but which will be beyond reach for 95% of the American
population once this outsourcing and "guest worker" thing is deployed fully.
And I want to be able to afford to drive cross-country and visit America's
geologic and historic attractions. I want to be able to afford a new computer
every few years. I want to be able to do basically what I'm able to do now. I
_probably_ will always be able to do that, 'cuz of the pension, and 'cuz stuff
really is getting cheaper 'cuz of those "work for peanuts" 3rd worlders, but
those that live 10 - 20 years from now, and are still working for a living,
probably won't be able to. Things for the vast majority of America are going
to get _worse_, a _lot_ worse.
Dave Head
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