Re: honesty, democracy, wealth

From: Marty Feldman (n2themiddle_at_aol.com)
Date: 08/08/04 

Date: 8 Aug 2004 15:28:04 -0700

cantueso@dieznet.com (cantueso) wrote in message news:<a76725c6.0408072354.77773d18@posting.google.com>...
> n2themiddle@aol.com (Marty Feldman) wrote in message news:<e65c3393.0408062031.7cd92cf3@posting.google.com>...
> > cantueso@dieznet.com (cantueso) wrote in message news:<a76725c6.0408042257.3ef161f5@posting.google.com>...
> > > they go together, and how?
> > >
> > > maybe that is even the problem of the very poor countries.
> > > it is easy to put in "infrastructures" and give or lend them money to
> > > build roads.
> > >
> > > but what if a majority of people believe that you can only get rich
> > > by some sort of theft or stratagem? in many countries this belief is
> > > based on observation.
> > >
> > > how could that be changed?
> >
> >
> > you can't get decent democracy, nor can nations become wealthy, if the
> > majority of people accept corruption, or dishonesty, or unfairness as
> > a fact of life.
>
> I also thought so. in my case this idea probably goes back to a German
> or Swiss economist or philosopher called Max Weber who is impossible
> to read except a little. he says that modern Western wealth was
> created by Protestantism. he says that since the Protestants did away
> with the idea of a priest who could take care of your sins, they had
> to develop an ultra-sensitive conscience to avoid eternal hell. this
> is how they all became honest.

interesting. but something i'd bury, because it has too much
religious baggage in countries that are not christian.

>
> (in addition he uses the concept of pre-determination to explains
> the Protestant need to work a lot and well, but I could not understand
> it)
>
> I am Swiss and now I live in Spain: here they seem to despise work and
> admire a clear courageous lie. they also despise the small coin and
> bow before the big fortune

interesting again. despise the small coin and bow before the big
fortune... lol. therefore, spaniards hate waiters and love
investment bankers? :)

>
> (and they are fast getting rich, but that may or may not be some sort
> of collateral development)
>
>
> > how to change those norms. very, very, very difficult. i'd say
> > impossible for adults, but definitely doable among kids through
> > education. we're talking about brainwashing
>
> no. I do not believe in brainwashing and I consider it a bad
> expression, a bad coinage, a virus word.

i don't like brainwashing per se as well, but it gets the point across
in graphic terms. makes it stickier.

>
> > certain attitudes and
> > values, a very narrow segment mind you, but ones that are often deeply
> > entrenched through centuries of ancient customs and traditions.
> > exchange programs,
>
> yes.
> > multi-lingualism,
>
> no. but learning English to get access to good press and books and the
> net

precisely.

>
> > educational reforms,
>
> but who is the reformer?
>
> would you happen to know that in these countries teachers can be
> bribed? kids pass if the parents pay a little extra.

THAT drives me up the freaking wall. i couldn't believe that when i
first heard about it in iraq. any society which accepts that kind of
corruption in the classroom -- the best, most effective means of
teaching kids fairplay -- is simply hopeless. it must be stopped.

this is why the third world remains the third world, and it's
inexcusable.

>
> > total media
> > propaganda campaign, all aimed to create eventually, a level playing
> > field,
>
> collective solutions again. I would believe that these are bound to
> fail because who is going to propose, then implement them?

the industrialized nations can, if developing nations continue to ask
for billions upon billions of our money every year. there MUST be
very strong strings attached to our charity, and it must be focused on
changing very specific values such as honesty and fairness, as an
anti-dote against corruption and crime. people and nations simply
cannot prosper when the playing field is distorted. and if they don't
like the strings, they don't get the money. the implicit
understanding is that, the very act of requesting charity, shows that
their status quo culture isn't working. i'd also like to add, that
the present thinking and methods used by NGOs for decades...that isn't
working either. it's time for a fresh start, and i'm convinced that a
fresh start with a values-based, educational approach is the most
effective way.

>
> I would look for ways to teach a few individuals, young people, two or
> three or ten

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