Re: honesty, democracy, wealth
From: cantueso (cantueso_at_dieznet.com)
Date: 08/10/04
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Date: 10 Aug 2004 00:35:20 -0700
n2themiddle@aol.com (Marty Feldman) wrote in message news:<e65c3393.0408081428.130e9850@posting.google.com>...
> > > you can't get decent democracy, nor can nations become wealthy, if the
> > > majority of people accept corruption, or dishonesty, or unfairness as
> > > a fact of life.
> >
> > I also thought so. in my case this idea probably goes back to a German
> > or Swiss economist or philosopher called Max Weber
> interesting. but something i'd bury, because it has too much
> religious baggage in countries that are not christian.
I did not mean that Protestantism should be exported. of course not.
(besides, I am a Catholic).
> > I am Swiss and now I live in Spain: here they seem to despise work and
> > admire a clear courageous lie. they also despise the small coin and
> > bow before the big fortune
>
>
> interesting again. despise the small coin and bow before the big
> fortune... lol. therefore, spaniards hate waiters and love
> investment bankers? :)
oh yes. of course, it takes very long to get used to.
for instance, if you hold the door for somebody older than you, he is
likely to lift up his head and walk past you like a three star
general on parade: he thinks you are being subservient and so
instantly would trample you if he could.
> >
> > > how to change those norms. very, very, very difficult. i'd say
> > > impossible for adults, but definitely doable among kids through
> > > education. we're talking about brainwashing
> >
> > no. I do not believe in brainwashing and I consider it a bad
> > expression, a bad coinage, a virus word.
>
>
> i don't like brainwashing per se as well, but it gets the point across
> in graphic terms. makes it stickier.
that is precisely what is bad about this term. it is an arrogant term
and it creates a faulty image
> > > multi-lingualism,
> >
> > no. but learning English to get access to good press and books and the
> > net
> precisely.
> > > educational reforms,
> >
> > but who is the reformer?
> >
> > would you happen to know that in these countries teachers can be
> > bribed? kids pass if the parents pay a little extra.
>
>
> THAT drives me up the freaking wall. i couldn't believe that when i
> first heard about it in iraq. any society which accepts that kind of
> corruption in the classroom -- the best, most effective means of
> teaching kids fairplay -- is simply hopeless. it must be stopped.
well.....?
what if honesty is not considered a "value"? I'd think that about 50%
of Spaniards believe that life is a cheat. you have to learn how to
cheat.
a pirate's set of ideas. non-commercial.
so for instance they tend to see teachers as representing the
"authorities"....that will try to brainwash you ...and in your case
they would be right.
they distrusat a cop, a teacher, a governor, any politician etc etc
>
> this is why the third world remains the third world, and it's
> inexcusable.
of course, it is exasperating, you'd better believe it.
> > > total media
> > > propaganda campaign, all aimed to create eventually, a level playing
> > > field,
!!!!!!!!!! creating very very deep resentment
> >
> > collective solutions again. I would believe that these are bound to
> > fail because who is going to propose, then implement them?
>
>
> the industrialized nations can, if developing nations continue to ask
> for billions upon billions of our money every year. there MUST be
> very strong strings attached to our charity,
> and it must be focused on
> changing very specific values such as honesty and fairness, as an
> anti-dote against corruption and crime.
you would know that the money ends up in the pockets of your friends.
> cannot prosper when the playing field is distorted.
they may not understand what you mean by "playing field"
> and if they don't
> like the strings, they don't get the money. the implicit
> understanding is that, the very act of requesting charity, shows that
> their status quo culture isn't working.
....is not working if measured by Western standards.
> the present thinking and methods used by NGOs for decades...that isn't
> working either. it's time for a fresh start, and i'm convinced that a
> fresh start with a values-based, educational approach is the most
> effective way.
but what are the values? honesty as a means to get rich?
isn't the clue in the meaning of the individual? and isn't that an
almost entirely religious concept?
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