Re: Sociobiology explains one more aspect of morality

From: Gary Gerrard (tseneca_at_alltel.net)
Date: 09/07/04 

Date: 7 Sep 2004 15:16:44 -0700

"wilfred" <wilfred@europe.com> wrote in message news:<chioqd$ect$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> "Gary Gerrard" <tseneca@alltel.net> wrote in message
> news:4c36ce.0409051542.7e51e2c9@posting.google.com...
> > royls@telus.net wrote in message
> news:<4138df9d.16942953@news.telus.net>...
> > > On 3 Sep 2004 08:29:49 -0700, tseneca@alltel.net (Gary Gerrard) wrote:
> > >
> > > >"robert j. kolker" <nowhere@nowhere.net> wrote in message
> news:<2ppvebFnvvlmU2@uni-berlin.de>...
> > > >> Gary Gerrard wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > My naiveté is in believing that people are capable of absorbing
> > > >> > other's ideas and considering them on their merit, rather than
> through
> > > >> > their own established view of the world. Descartes did not say, "I
> > > >> > think it, therefore it is."
> > > >>
> > > >> Descartes was a subjectivist.
> > > >
> > > >And you are an objectivist. The statement "I think, therefore I am."
> > > >is NOT subjectivist. It is actually objectivist in the Randian sense.
> > >
> > > Definitely not.
> > >
> > > > Translated, from the French, it was, "I exist, therefore I am."
> >
> > To play with the concept a little further, perhaps we can rephrase
> > Descartes into a Randian tautology: "I exist, therefore existence."
> > Seems to me, no discussion about existence or the reality of the world
> > or whether it is objective or subjective can begin without at least,
> > "I exist," even if unconscious or tacitly stated. If I don't exist,
> > no one, including me, can debate the nature of the world with me, even
> > if they exist. Maybe Rand was misquoted. Maybe what she said was,
> > "Exit, exits."
>
> "I exist" tacitly assumes "I", which of course entails the question of what
> "I" am, by which we reach the concept of thinking machines again by a more
> roundabout route. Descartes notes elsewhere that "the proposition "I am, I
> exist" is neccesarily true... etc etc." The formulation of the Cogito has
> acquired fame, but the man himself doesn't seem to change his views, and
> that the difference is only one of explanation/translation, not changes in
> Descartes Opinion

I have always found the debate between objective and subjective
entertaining. I have wondered whether those who insist on an absolute
reality, even though it cannot be known without the subjective
perception of the human mind, were displaying some instinctual need
for absolutes were there are none. To me, the real issue is that
posed by the sophists like Protagoras and the Socrates and his
disciples Plato and Aristotle. Is knowledge and truth impossible
because everything is the product of sense perception/experience which
is unique to each individual, or is reason applied to sense
perception/experience capable of producing an understanding of the
sense perception/experience superior to the unanalyzed experience? I
think western thought, and expecially the scientific method, has
proved the latter, although experience is the ultimate test of reason.
 Reason without experience is fantasy. Experience without reason is
superstition. Reason consistent with experience is as clsoe to truth
as we can get. Maybe??? (not proofread)
>
> > > ?? No, it wasn't. It was written in Latin. "Cogito ergo sum" is one
> > > of the most famous quotes in history, and it means, "I think,
> > > therefore I am."
> > >
> > > >How
> > > >does that differ from the trite and logically inconsequential
> > > >"Existence exists"?
> > >
> > > Has a bit of a Hegelian ring to it, doesn't it?
> > >
> > > -- Roy L

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