TURMEL: #3 Time Banks Congress 2004 in Toronto

From: John Turmel (bc726_at_FreeNet.Carleton.CA)
Date: 09/28/04 

Date: 28 Sep 2004 02:11:06 GMT

>From: TimeBanksUK@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 10:08:46 +0100
>From: "Lyons, Amanda" <Alyons@northumberland.gov.uk>
>Subject: RE: TURMEL: Time Banks Congress 2004 in Toronto
 
AL: I would just like to say that I really do not understand
why you bothered going to the conference if you go with such
strong predetermined ideas. You seem to have spent the whole
time looking for views to challenge or individuals to
critise.

JCT: Don't they say that about any perfectionist? Especially
an engineer on the subject?

AL: I now wish I had not wasted my time reading your
extremely long tirade. Time banking may not be to your
liking but it is to thousands of others around the world and
it works very well for those people. Amanda Time Club, Blyth

JCT: It doesn't work well enough for me. I want it to work
better. I won't stand for less. With the whole world dying
for a new financial system, can you fault my rush?

>From: TimeBanksUK@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:19:39 +0100
>From: "SUE" <sue.tettix@daelnet.co.uk> [Sue Holden]
>Subject: Re: TURMEL: Time Banks Congress 2004 in Toronto
 
SH: dear john and joy et al, thanks for your post congress
offerings. for me, your responses, represent seeds of a
healthy debate around alternative currency concepts such as:
sustainability, control, parity, competition, co-operation
etc. i like to be challenged by the ithaca concepts and the
way they fill gaps the other systems leave open, as indeed,
I have branched out into timebank from lets in order to take
up the opportunities time-bank offers to fill lets' gaps.
surely there is room for all these ideas.

JCT: Not the bad ones. Not the ones that say central control
should stifle the free market. Not the ones that say central
control should stifle choice of trade goods or services.

SH: we need many different types of alternative currency
systems, just as we need different denominations and
spiritual disciplines to suit folks' different spiritual
needs.

JCT: I agree that many different types of alternative
currencies can co-exist but one the whole world is easier to
engineer for the world than each little entity having to
built their own. Third world entities may have less
resources to build their own to save themselves. Perhaps
they'll have to be saved by a central UNILETS clearinghouse
once every accepts the universal (I mean other planets and
civilizations too) standard of time.

SH: on the competition fron, the 'why men don't iron'
philosophy would say that men need more competition than
women, who thrive better, on the whole, in a co-operative
environment, just as some blood groups will find it easier
to stay healthy on a vegetarian diet, whilst others need
their meat. the unhealthy bit, seems to be a tendency to
moralise about these things.

JCT: Having spent most of my life in the poker world, in the
company of women who are competitors, women who are
fearless, women who strive to excellence, I'm not sure if
the competition by testosterone argument is really valid. I
just don't think of women as different from men, perhaps one
of my minor failings.

SH: the biggest stumbling block to a healthy debate on these
issues, for me, is not the content, but the style of
communication we use. what's the point in looking after
peoples' material wellbeing with a non-exploitative,
interest free means of exchange, if our relationships with
each other are attended to. one party dismissing the other
party as a failure, or simply inept, would not seem the
most likey way to get a receptive response to any idea,
however wonderful.

JCT: If everyone was well-intentioned, I'd agree. But I've
pointed out that timedollars has been sabotaged by its
central controllers who were warned of the dangers of their
central control and still damaged your networks. Whether by
accident or on purpose, whether morons or moles, I don't
work with people who damage our team. Especially people
damage our team in positions of leadership. I'm sorry that
many people think I could get a better reception by treating
with these saboteurs in a non-accusatory manner. There's no
way to suggest someone's failures are sabotage in a nice
way, is there. And that they've caused the failures in
exactly the spots where I suggested repair makes it seem
worse.

SH: i, for one, do value your contribution john and the
debate you have initiated, [also joy=92s response]. This
exchange of ideas challenges my own thinking. however, i
think the way you 'sabotage' any possibility of time bankers
being more open to interacting with you and your experience,
and where your own input is 'set up to fail', is not the
content of your thoughts, so much as the hurtful, critical
and dismissive way in which you express them.

JCT: Your time banking ship is sailing straight towards the
reefs with booby-traps on board. As you are going, you are
doomed. Any Argentinian-style paper credits system will
explode on the scene when enough people are starving. It
could explode on your scene before you are starving. The
point is that I don't care much about the opinion about the
people who will go on with the sabotaged system and care
about those who may decide to rise out of the ashes like a
Phoenix to try again next time based on a better banking
systems engineering blueprint.

SH: hoping we continue to maintain and progress our thinking
about our modus operandi, and our willingness to interact
with the broader church with its various shades of
operational detail, i wish us all, all the best in our
efforts. cheers - sue holden

JCT: Hey, all I'm trying to do is show you how to make your
timebanks fly. My critiques are about malfunctions in the
time banking systems engineering. My criticisms are about
not having done anything to correct them.

If timebanks survive, they'll have to switch from 1-velocity
trading to high-velocity trading notes. I want to see your
networks thrive and join the family of time-trading networks
in the world. You can't do that as long as you keep your
engineering flaws intact.
 
And though I may seem aggressive to those who stand in my
way, I'll always bet that Fast Freddy, whose picture has
been a source of inspiration over my desk for all these
years, would probably approve. Anyone who condemns my
manners should consider if Fast Freddy agrees on my rush:
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/fastfred.jpg 

--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm 
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel 519-753-0645 USENET: can.politics