Re: Distribution & Redistribution

From: William C Colley (chriscoll_at_panola.com)
Date: 11/30/04 

Date: 30 Nov 2004 14:40:07 -0800

Greetings All,

royls@telus.net wrote in message news:<41acc64e.9347395@news.telus.net>...
> On 30 Nov 2004 06:55:30 -0800, chriscoll@panola.com (William C Colley)
> wrote:
>
> >Greetings All,
> >
> >jmhall@apex.home.net wrote in message news:<m33byt4o3u.fsf@apex.home.net>...
> >> Ron Allen <rallen2@bellsouth.net> writes:
> >>
> >> > royls@telus.net wrote:
> >> > > Socialists . . . want to socialize privately as
> >> > > well as publicly created value.
> >> >
> >> > Ron Allen wrote:
> >> > > As I understand socialism, it is about socializing
> >> > > both collectively made and collectively used goods
> >> > > of value, such as capital goods.
> >> >
> >> > royls@telus.net wrote:
> >> > > You do not understand socialism accurately.
> >> >
> >> > Ron Allen answers:
> >> > Fine. But, I will continue to define and use the
> >> > name "socialism" in the way I understand the word.
> >> > No one will tell me how I must use or mean a word.
> >>
> >> Coming from the guy who keeps telling every one that
> >> he would actually accept the decisions of the majority
> >> if they "democratically" choose capitalsim over
> >> whatever it is he's advocating.
> >>
> >> Thanks for the laugh, I needed it today.
> >
> >I'm enjoying the debate between Mr. Allan and Mr. Roy myself, over who
> >is the better socialist.
>
> It was over who used the English language more accurately. He lost.
> Your statement above shows you are no more skilled at it than he.
>

On the contrary Mr. Roy. I have never questioned Mr. Allen's command
of the English language, but rather his ability to use it to persuade
me as to the honesty of his beliefs. In my rather scant history of
direct conversation with him, he seemed to realize that I would not
pretend that his statements meant anything other than what they
clearly did, thus he resorted to an actual ad homnium attack, stating
" If you weren't so damn bull-headed, you'd be pig-headed."

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3D5D3EA2.6D340DC7%40bellsouth.net&output=gplain

You, Mr. Roy, actually accuse me of personally attacking you when I
have merely asked you questions, perhaps leading questions, in an
attempt to further understand your belief that I am somehow equal to
a slave owner because I own the land I live on, and I don't see why
that is wrong. Given that you cannot name any individual who is
enslaved by me, or whos rights I am negating, and given that you
respond with hostility and acusations to simple questions, I can be
reasonably clear about the honesty of your beliefs Mr. Roy.

Thus my comment to Mr. Hall about my enjoyment of your and Mr. Allens
conversation regarding the right meaning of socialism. For what it's
worth a google of <socialism definition> reveals
 
http://www.google.com/search?num=25&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&oi=defmore&q=define:SOCIALISM

<begin quotes>

a theory or system of social organization by which the major means of
production and distribution are owned, manages, and controlled by the
government, by an association or workers, or the community as a whole
www.imuna.org/manual/app_a.html

an economic system in which the means of production are controlled by
the state
www.wwnorton.com/college/econ/stiglitz/glosss.htm

An economic and political system in which private property is
abolished and the means of production (i.e., capital and land) are
collectively owned and operated by the community as a whole in order
to advance the interests of all. In Marxist ideology, socialism is
considered an intermediate stage in the inevitable transformation of
capitalism into communism. A socialist society is envisioned as being
characterized by the dictatorship of the proletariat; the existence of
a high degree of cooperation and equality; and the absence of
discrimination, poverty, exploitation, and war. With the non-existence
of private ownership, the private profit motive is eliminated from
economic life. Consequently, market forces do not play a role in
organizing the process of production. Instead, large-scale government
planning is employed to ensure the harmonious operation of the process
of production.
www.indiana.edu/~ipe/glossry.html

A social system in which the means of producing and distributing goods
are owned collectively and political power is exercised by the whole
community.
www.northland.cc.az.us/Pos221/resource/definiti.htm

A term covering many belief systems that oppose the concentration of
wealth and power that is a natural part of capitalism. Whereas
capitalists emphasize freedom for the individual to possess private
property, socialists emphasize the well-being of the community. They
strive to achieve this through many methods, including public
ownership, regulation, and state-sponsored social programs. Socialism
has taken on many different forms throughout the world, with varying
degrees of success. Some socialists favour a gradual move away from
unrestricted capitalism and the maintenance of a democratic society;
others favour force to overthrow capitalism and distribute wealth.
www.heritage.nf.ca/confederation/glossary.html

The view that the government should own and control major industries
pittsford.monroe.edu/jefferson/calfieri/economics/EcoGlossary.html

government ownership of the means of production; leads to economic
stagnation due to a lack of competition, innovation and productivity
(examples: postal service, transportation, civil courts, education)
www.stormy.org/defin.htm

system in which the government controls production and distribution of
goods and wealth in a country.
web.isp.cz/jcrane/Glossary.html

(3 syl.). The political and social scheme of Robert Owen, of
Montgomeryshire, who in 1816 published a work to show that society was
in a wretched condition, and all its institutions and religious
systems were based on wrong principles. The prevailing system is
competition, but Owen maintained that the proper principle is
co-operation; he therefore advocated a community of property and the
abolition of degrees of rank. (1771-1858.) The Socialists are called
also Owenites (3 syl.). In France the Fourierists and St. Simonians
are similar sorts of communists, who receive their designations from
Fourier and St. Simon (q.v.).
www.bootlegbooks.com/Reference/PhraseAndFable/data/1155.html

economic theory or system in which production should be for the public
good rather than private profit.
www.asset-analysis.com/glossary/glo_045.html

n. a political and economic theory advocating collective ownership of
the means of production, and collective control of distribution. It
advocates use of coercive force by the civil government to attain the
"ideal" of economic and social fairness and equality. In practice
socialism always leads to an aristocracy which brutally enforces its
"ideal" upon the rest of society.
www.jeanchretien.net/data/0055.html

The attempted abolition of all privilege by restoring power entirely
to the coercive agent behind privilege, the State, thereby converting
capitalist oligarchy into Statist monopoly. Whitewashing a wall by
painting it black.
www.blackcrayon.com/library/dictionary/celine/

A kind of command economy in which the government owns and operates
the main industries, while individuals own and operate less crucial
industries.
wps.prenhall.com/ca_ph_ebert_busess_3/0,6518,224378-,00.html

an economic system in which the people (government) own and operate
the principle means of production. This means things such as
communications, railroads, steel, oil, and so on
instruction.blackhawk.tec.wi.us/ghoffarth/economicsglossary.htm

An economic system that stresses the varying degrees of government
ownership and redistribution of wealth.
schools.cbe.ab.ca/b836/curriculum/social/socialgloss.html

an economic system in which the government owns and operates basic
industries but individuals own most businesses (See See page 10.)
highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0070898375/student_view0/chapter1/key_terms__amp__glossary.html

     Philosophical approach to government that allows for public
ownership of businesses.
www.daltonstate.edu/faculty/bguo/p1101/Glossary.htm

a political theory advocating state ownership of industry
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn

an economic system based on state ownership of capital
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn

</end quotes>

There, choose one or all and remind me again how I really don't own
the land I live on.

William C Colley

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