Re: Question about President's Social Security plan

From: Bill (xxx_at_yy.zz)
Date: 01/11/05 

Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 06:03:44 GMT

"Socialism is a Mental Disease" <root@localhost.> wrote in message
news:3qm6u0h1mnrtqnghtg0qqkh20nera9jq33@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 04:35:31 GMT, "Bill" <xxx@yy.zz> wrote:
>>
>>"Socialism is a Mental Disease" <root@localhost.> wrote in message
>>news:s0g6u05fe9s5kc7bep7cm8su3e38lvho2u@4ax.com...
>>> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:10:09 GMT, "Bill" <xxx@yy.zz> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>The company owes me nothing for holding that certificate.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You are an owner of the company! Do you have any clue what that means?
>>>
>>
>>Really. So I can go tell IBM what to do. I did not know that.
>>
>
> Now you know. And if you own enough shares, you could even become
> IBM's President and CEO. Imagine that!
>
>>
>>And why do you find it necessary to use an insulting tone? I have been
>>polite.
>>
>
> Can't help it, it's my *normal* tone.
>
>>In reality I have no voice in the running of IBM.
>>
>
> You do have a voice, proportional to your ownership share.
>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>The only time I have a shot at that is in bankrupcy and often the
>>>>stockholders get nothing. I do have a vote, but it typically does not
>>>>count
>>>>for anything.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Don't be silly. You continue to show you have no clue about what you
>>> are talking about.
>>>
>>
>>Once more you answer with insults but do not refute the facts. Why?
>>
>
> You didn't present any facts. The fact is that you can get your share
> if the company is subject to dissolution, including, but not limited
> to, bankruptcy. The owners might simple decide to break the company
> apart.
>
>>>>
>>>>But, in any case, you have not disputed the key point: Essentially every
>>>>dollar (exclusive of dividends and buybacks) one investor makes in the
>>>>stock
>>>>market (the seller) comes out of the pocket of another investor (the
>>>>buyer).
>>>>Do you agree or disagree with this?
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's true. However, that's what happens when you sell your house isn't
>>> it?
>>>
>>
>>Yes. But I can live in my house in the mean time. I can not live in a share
>>of
>>stock.
>>
>
> You can live in your house or not. You can collect rent. Or simply
> leave your house alone and sell it for a profit. No Ponzi here.
>
>>
>>>>
>>>>And that is reminisicent of Ponzi - as I said.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's obviously not! Ponzi would require an increasing supply of shares
>>> which doesn't happen.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>But we do have an increasing supply of shares.
>>
>
> Get your facts straight, please. This is simply false (except in very
> rare situations, including the IPO).
>

Well that's what I was thinking of. Also splits, stock options, etc. But it is
not important to the main point.

>>

>>What a Ponzi scheme requires is an increasing supply of buyers.
>>
>
> Nope! It requires an increasing supply of suckers, not buyers.
>

Now you are just playing with words. The people who bought in did not view
themselves that way. The stock market requires an increasing supply of buyers
in order for it to go up. I don't think you disagree with this.

>>
>>What would happen if buyers would suddenly disappear
>
> You would still be the owner of the company, would you not?
>

Not "the" owner. But I would not be able to sell my shares and use it to buy
other things I had perhaps planned on. House, car, etc. That is really the key
point. A person's goal in buying RCA in 1928 was not to be an "owner" it was
to make money and cash out someday and buy stuff. In order for this to happen
there must be an increasing supply of buyers. This stopped in 1929 and it
could happen again. And, again, I do not believe you disagree with that point.

By reminiscent of Ponzi (which is not the same as being a Ponzi scheme) I mean
that is exactly what happened to Ponzi. Buyers dried up and the whole thing
collapsed.

>>
>>the whole thing collapes as happened in 1929. And it could happen again
>>as baby boomers reach retirement and start cashing out.
>>
>
> Anyone that is close to retirement only has about 20% of his or her
> portfolio in stock. It wouldn't be a big deal, really.
>
>

Now that is clearly not true. I can point to myself as a counter example.

Bill

> --
> "A society that robs an individual of the product of his
> effort... is... a mob held together by institutionalized
> gang rule." -- Ayn Rand

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