Re: Why Europe can't hold out - Brooks, NY Times

royls_at_telus.net
Date: 01/14/05 

Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 20:28:31 GMT

On 13 Jan 2005 18:09:07 -0800, "Gistak" <gistak@hotmail.com> wrote:

>royls@telus.net wrote:
>> On 10 Jan 2005 14:05:55 -0800, "Gistak" <gistak@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >royls@telus.net wrote:
>> >> On 6 Jan 2005 13:12:47 -0800, "Gistak" <gistak@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >royls@telus.net wrote:
>> >> >> On 6 Jan 2005 08:59:41 -0800, "Gistak" <gistak@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >David James Polewka wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> Already, high European taxes make the European model look
>> >> >obsolete.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >This doesn't make sense. How do high taxes make it look
>obsolete?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The types of taxes they use, especially VAT and income tax,
>bear
>> >on
>> >> >> production, reducing wealth creation and prosperity.
>> >> >
>> >> >Even if what you said was incontrovertable, how does that
>translate
>> >to
>> >> >being obsolete?
>> >>
>> >> An older model that does not work as well as a newer one is
>> >considered
>> >> obsolete. If the European model is going to be a permanent
>> >low-growth
>> >> model, that is a long-term problem for Europeans. I doubt that
>they
>> >> want to be the Africans of the 22nd C.
>> >
>> >But maybe other parts things help or hurt in other ways. They're
>> >certainly not the Africa if THIS century, so I don't think their
>model
>> >is obsolete quite yet.
>>
>> Sometimes by the time something is known not to work, it's too late
>to
>> do anything about it.
>
>If it's not known not to work, then it's not obsolete.

?? No, it could very well be obsolete. Standard 19th C medical
practice became obsolete the day Ignaz Semmelweiss said doctors should
wash their hands between patients. But it was not known for many
years why the standard practice was harmful.

>> >> >> >> European and U.S. workers are about equally productive per
>hour
>> >> >> >worked.
>> >> >> >> But Americans work 50 percent more than Germans, French and
>> >> >Italians.
>> >> >> >In
>> >> >> >> the 1970s, Western Europeans actually worked more than
>> >Americans.
>> >> >But
>> >> >> >as
>> >> >> >> taxes rose and incentives to work diminished, Europeans cut
>> >back
>> >> >> >their
>> >> >> >> hours or dropped out of the labor force.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >You may as well say that as the earth got older, Europeans cut
>> >back
>> >> >> >their hours or dropped out of the labor force. Both are true
>> >> >> >statements, but neither backs up a claim of cause and
>> >consequence.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In economics, there is a recognition that motivation to do
>> >something
>> >> >> one would not do of one's own accord depends on the reward for
>> >doing
>> >> >> it.
>> >> >
>> >> >It depends on several things, sure. This isn't just economics,
>but
>> >> >psychology. The point is that taxes being raised doesn't lead to
>> >longer
>> >> >vacations.
>> >>
>> >> ?? It could easily do so. If working is not going to get you
>> >> significantly more money, you go on vacation.
>> >
>> >PAID vacation. They get much more paid vacation than people in the
>US
>> >do. I'm sorry, but I thought that was well understood.
>>
>> ??? Uh, sorry, but I thought _you_ understood: "paid vacation" just
>> means that the employer accepts less work for the same amount of
>> money. It just takes a little bit off each paycheck during the time
>> the employee is working and pays it when they are not working. If
>> Europeans got less paid vacation, they'd get more pay, and Americans
>> vice versa.
>
>You said that if working isn't going to get you more money, then you go
>on vacation. You brought it down to a personal question, and I
>responded.

OK, let me clarify, as you do not seem to be a native English speaker:
the second-person pronoun "you" is often used in place of the
third-person impersonal pronoun "one," because the latter is
considered to sound ponderous and pedantic.

>Paid vacation is given and people take it.

_Why_ is it "given," rather than more money?

>They're not
>deciding whether to take it or not based on whether they have to pay
>high taxes.

How do you know employers are not deciding to offer it because of high
taxes? Consider the common experience with taxed and untaxed
benefits: employers spend much more on untaxed benefits, because more
of the benefit actually gets to the employee and functions as an
incentive.

>Just like you and I do, they decide to take it because it's
>offered to them.

They "decide" to take it because the employer cannot, repeat _cannot_
offer untaxed money instead.

>> >If I had more
>> >paid vacation, I'd take it, whether taxes were high or low.
>>
>> If you had more paid vacation, you'd get less pay, and vice versa.
>If
>> that additional pay is going to be taxed so highly that you don't get
>> to keep much of it, you will be more likely to choose longer
>vacations
>> over more pay.
>
>You mean among different companies? Because I'm talking about every
>company in France, for instance. They ALL offer more vacation than most
>US companies. Maybe the occasional French worker can decide to take a
>job in the US for more pay and less vacation, but most don't make
>choices like that.
>
>And shorter work weeks are ALSO mandated by law. This isn't a worker or
>employer choice.

What is mandated by law is not part of the discussion here, because
there is no choice involved.

>> >Why couldn't it be
>> >more vacation vs. LESS vacation?
>>
>> Uh, why do you think employers are willing to pay people at all? So
>> they will sit around on a beach somewhere?
>
>Vacation IS pay.

In a sense, I suppose. But the point is, it is _not_taxed_ like money
pay.

>Sitting around a beach IS being paid.

Well, being paid while you do it is. I have certainly done it from
time to time without being paid.

>And yes, they
>pay them in beach time for the same reason they pay them in cash. So
>that they can keep employees working.

Right. But you still have not addressed the question of _why_
employers give vacation time instead of cash. If it's just a legal
mandate, there's nothing to discuss re their motives.

>> >Anyway, it's not necessarily the companies, but legal requirements.
>You
>> >may not know how the system really works in Europe.
>>
>> No system is going to make employers willing to pay for no work.
>
>It's my understanding that in parts of Europe there are mandatory
>requirements for vacation time. I don't know exactly what you mean by
>your sentence above.

If there is a legal requirement, the employers are not "deciding to
offer" more vacation time. They are _compelled_to_give_it_. That
gets into a completely different branch of economics.

-- Roy L

Relevant Pages

  • Re: The answer is simple: Dont hire a woman...
    ... H.R.1388, the Paycheck Fairness Act, introduced by ... after the Equal Pay Act was signed into law, ... means you have to compare one job with a completely different job to make ... Employers will be reluctant to hire women. ...
    (soc.men)
  • Equality move could hit white men
    ... Ministers are preparing an equality law that would allow bosses to give ... preference to other candidates under a change in discrimination law being ... clear and, if it isn't, employers may be reluctant to use it. ... which campaigns on equal pay. ...
    (soc.men)
  • Re: OTS interim report
    ... Their report is linked from here: ... pay this expense out of petty cash and forget about it. ... Which IS what will happen if this relief is withdrawn. ... Employers are free to pay for such things via salary as ...
    (uk.finance)
  • Re: McCains health care plan
    ... McCain suggests that we eliminate the "tax break" that employees get by having their employers pay health care benefits. ... Under McCain's plan, that exclusion would be eliminated and if your employer pays health care benefits, you will pay tax on them under McCain's plan. ...
    (soc.retirement)
  • Re: GM, Ford To Cover Car Payments If Buyer Loses Job **America, land of the welfare state**
    ... etc. will be paid wages more comparable to those paid ... our local employers wanted/needed. ... You want certified 4140 you pay one ...
    (alt.machines.cnc)