Re: Wages, Inflation and Social Security

From: The Trucker (mikcob_at_verizon.net)
Date: 01/21/05 

Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:58:19 -0800

Socialism is a Mental Disease wrote:

> On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 18:09:34 GMT, New Dark Ages
> <nda@ignorance.is.bliss.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>root@localhost. wrote...
>>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 06:32:17 GMT, New Dark Ages
>>> <nda@ignorance.is.bliss.invalid> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >root@localhost. wrote...
>>> >> On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 04:06:39 GMT, New Dark Ages
>>> >> <nda@ignorance.is.bliss.invalid> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> >root@localhost. wrote...
>>> >> >> On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:48:44 GMT, New Dark Ages
>>> >> >> <nda@ignorance.is.bliss.invalid> wrote:
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> It remains for you. For me, it doesn't. For me it's a matter of
>>> >> >> >> first principles, namely, that I have the following rights:
>>> >> >> >> life, liberty and property.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >Well, you're certainly entitled to your little ideology.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> It's not an entitlement, it's a right.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Heck, maybe we agree. How do you define "property" and "liberty" ?
>>> >>
>>> >> Property (strong sense): whatever one creates and does not relinquish
>>> >> control of. Derives from the Principle of Self-ownership.
>>> >
>>> >What's the "Principle of Self-ownership" ? The idea that we're the
>>> >property of ourselves?
>>>
>>> Yes, the very simple idea that we have full control of ourselves at
>>> all times.
>>>
>>> >> Property (weak sense): whatever one controls exclusively through the
>>> >> threat of use of force.
>>> >
>>> >Land ownership is immoral, then? (Natural resource, controlled
>>> >exclusively through the [threat of the] use of force?
>>>
>>> To be immoral, it would have to violate some principle. For the life
>>> of me, I cannot think of one it would.
>>
>>You don't have any principles about when it is moral or immoral to
>>use force--i.e., it's always moral to use force? Particularly when
>>you're using it to exclude others from something that isn't yours in
>>the first place, by your own definitions?
>>
>
> The problem is that it isn't theirs either. Why should it be immoral
> to exclude others if others have no moral claim to what I am holding?
> That's why I don't think there is a clear philosophical principle on
> which to stand for moral guidance here.

It is really very simple: We/they have the same exact moral claim to
use or consume the resource as you. That is the point here. You
have no _superior_ moral claim. You seem to _want_ a moral superiortiy
simply because you have staked a claim on some natural resource.

I deleted the rest of the arguments because they simply dwell on the
same thing you have refused to know all along. 

-- 
"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of society but
the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough
to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy
is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by
education." - Thomas Jefferson.  http://GreaterVoice.org

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Wages, Inflation and Social Security
    ... > to exclude others if others have no moral claim to what I am holding? ... > ownership of natural resources. ... And you have yet to describe your principles around the use of force. ... It can hardly be a fair agreement if it's coerced. ...
    (sci.econ)
  • Re: review this street fight video
    ... >>>A dozen rules to exclude their fighting principles. ... I'm asking you what "WC principles". ... the art doesn't fail- the practitioners fail. ...
    (rec.martial-arts)
  • Re: Travisite Creedalism
    ... What concepts, principles, practices does it include / exclude? ... Such is not the case with theology. ...
    (soc.religion.quaker)
  • Re: Wages, Inflation and Social Security
    ... On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 18:09:34 GMT, New Dark Ages ... the very simple idea that we have full control of ourselves at ... to exclude others if others have no moral claim to what I am holding? ... >Why don't you just say you don't HAVE any principles! ...
    (sci.econ)
  • Re: Wages, Inflation and Social Security
    ... >> to exclude others if others have no moral claim to what I am holding? ... >simply because you have staked a claim on some natural resource. ... -- "A society that robs an individual of the product of his effort... ...
    (sci.econ)