Re: Leszek Kolakowski on the Marxian LTV


Ron Peterson wrote:
> Hunter wrote:
> > Ron Peterson wrote:
>
> > > Yes, but prices and costs are distorted by factors of supply and
> > > demand. There needs to be some theory to normalize those factors.
>
> > But not a theory which has no roots in the real world; not a theory
> > which is essentially philosophical/sociological speculation about how
> > the world would be better if we could realize an utopian state of
> > being.
>
> Marx and Engels rejected the utopian approach to socialism.

They made many declarations. The declared their
philosophical/sociological speculation to be "science;" not only
science but the one true science of political economy. And of course
they denied any and all utopian tendencies. They had to if only for
those paramount political reasons. But simple denials are meaningless
in the face of the fact that the system was as inescapably utopian as
was Plato's Republic. It was a successor to Plato's Republic and More's
Utopia.

>
> > > > The LTV is essentially a normative and deductive construct.
>
> > > What are you trying to say? You don't have an alternative economic
> > > model. Adam Smith and Ricardo had the same basic theory.
>
> > By normative I'm saying that the LTV is driven not by facts but by
> > ethical and moral judgments as to how social relations should and
> > should not be arranged. "Should" and "ought" are normative terms. "Is"
> > and "are" are different. They're addressed to present reality.
>
> You seem to have a hypothesis that if someone has a goal, then their
> work is tainted by that goal.

It certainly does make a difference because the "science" then has to
be tailored to that goal. That's the problem with Marxism. It's roots
are in the ends, in the goals, not in external, empirically verifiable
reality. If it were correctly labeled as fictional instead of
scientific I have no more trouble with it than I do with the fact that
2,500 years later Plato's Republic is still in print.


>
> > > Marx was trying to give an understanding of capitalism. What ever his
> > > motives, his economic model should be the sole item of discussion for
> > > this thread.
>
> > Not when his "economic model" dovetailed perfectly with
> > Marxist/Leninist political strategy throughout the 20th Century--and at
> > the same time the economic model turned out to be a manifest failure in
> > the empirical sense, a fact that Marxist/Leninists refused to
> > acknowledge---for political, not economic, reasons. In the end, as was
> > the case with Marx, what mattered was politics, not a valid and
> > enduring assessment of capitaliist systems.
>
> Marx isn't around to defend himself, so there isn't a point to
> psychologically analyze his motives.
>
> > > > And why do you use the normative term "should have"?
>
> > > It's only hypothetical.
>
> > Okay, but the use of normative language is generally quite telling.
> > Moral judgments tend to creep into conversations without much fanfare.
> > It's important when we speak of disciplines such as economics which
> > ideally should be value free when the goal is the objective truth of
> > the matter.
>
> Why don't you tell that to the politicians that want to ban stem cell
> research.

You've been fair-minded about this in the sense that you seem to
acknowledge the things I say have an impact. Most socialists (I don't
mean you) seem not to be that flexible. Generally they are more
grudging with admissions about these things. Politiics is still in
command.

As it worked out in the 20th Century, the great tragedy was in the
nature of the regimes which grew up shaped by the ideology. As the ends
were visionary impossibilities, the efforts to achieve them inevitably
had to be based on force and the regimes just as inevitably had to
become totalitarian. The political order achieved was a brutal
surreality without any resemblance to the original ends. World-wide
between 85 and 100 million innocent civilians were murdered, sacrifices
to Marx's utopian vision. There are lessons to be learned from this
history and all humanists are morally obliged to learn them.

Hunter

>
> --
> Ron

.

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