Re: Surge protection without grounded plugs

Jon Slaughter is not ignoring anything? Your post even ignores what
the original poster asks. There is no major rewiring cost. Necessary
for both human safety and surge protection is an 8 foot earth rod and
less than 10 feet of bare copper 6 gauge wire. Where is this massive
cost? Why do you also trivialize that cost by justifying "a price on
human life"?

Why do you post about people killed by toasters? David Schwartz
asked nothing about toasters. Jon completely ignores his problem and
ignores industry standard solutions. Why, Jon, do you recommend plug-
in protectors that do not provide effective protection (don't even
claim to provide protection) and that are even a safety threat on two
wire receptacles?

An effective protector has a short earthing connection. A plug-in
protector has all but no earthing when too far from earth ground and
too close to an appliance. A human safety threat is also demonstrated
by 'scary pictures' of grossly overpriced and ineffective plug-in
protectors. Even a report from a North Carolina Fire Marshall notes
how 'protector' fires may be mistakenly blamed on an overload. Did
you learn from any of those citations? Why do you even ignore:
You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor
"arrest" it. What these protective devices do is
neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply
divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.

Jon recommends a plug-in protector? He also recommends leaving
earth grounds missing because human safety is irrelevant? Jon did not
understand meaning of 'divert' in that above quote? He recommends a
device that requires earth ground but does not even have a safety
ground? Jon erroneously assumes those two grounds are same because he
does not even comprehend the significance of wire impedance and the
importance of 'divert'. Jon provides no technical facts to support
his supposition. Jon recommends multiple plug-in protectors that
don't even claim to provide protection. Jon recommends not upgrading
a building's earth ground that provides both human safety and
transistor safety. He says it is too expensive.

Meanwhile neither safety ground nor neutral wire does anything
effective. Simple wire impedance (a 13,000 volt example) makes that
obvious. Jon even ignored citations that repeatedly answered this:
Show me a circuit that significantly increases the surge protection
that uses earth ground to accomplish it over the best that can be
done without out using ground.

Standard solutions were provided how many times - 15 - 20? Did
you read any of them?
Well I assert, from personal and broadcast experience spanning
30 years, that you can design a system that will handle *direct
lightning strikes* on a routine basis. ...

When effective protection is installed, in every case, earthing
defines each layer of protection. When protection was ineffective,
what did they do? Did they install plug-in protectors? Of course
not. They required a solution - not a scam. They fixed earthing in the
Orange County FL emergency response center:
http://www.psihq.com/AllCopper.htm

But again, cited are technical reasons - not claims punctuated with
'***' and 'fucking'. Jon, do you have anything technical to post -
such as the numeric specification from that plug-in protector that
even claims protection from each type of surge? Where are those
numbers?

Jon, you even confuse wire resistance with wire impedance (why
connections must be short, no sharp bends, not inside metallic
conduit, etc). With basic electrical knowledge, then you would
understand why wire impedance is so critically important. You would
know why the US Air Force requires all protectors at the service
entrance and why an industry benchmark - Polyphaser - discussed
earthing extensively. You don't possess technical experience of
simple electrical concepts AND you obviously never worked where
effective protection is routinely installed.

With experience, then you have seen where a plug-in protector
earthed a surge, destructively, through adjacent electronics. With
experience, then you would know that earth rod and 6 AWG wire is
inexpensive. You even trivialize human safety; even justify
unnecessary risk by citing a toaster. Do you know anything about
earthing or safety ground other than what is in a Wikipedia article?
Apparently not based upon what you have posted.

Older homes with two wire receptacles typically do not have
sufficient earthing. Often that earthing is even missing. In one
case, a house even exploded because earthing was missing. The
original poster is encouraged to inspect - maybe upgrade - earthing
that provides both human safety and transistor safety. Jon never
knew what is "the cost it takes to rewire a house earth ground". That
cost is known trivial when one has knowledge and experience.

On Sep 24, 10:59 pm, "Jon Slaughter" <Jon_Slaugh...@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
...
I'm not ignoring anything and infact I'm taking into account much more than
you. Your ignoring the cost it takes to rewire a house for earth ground. The
fact that neutral is earth ground but usually exists at a slightly higher
potential because of resistance. The fact of the matter is that you might be
right in theory but for all practical reasons your wrong. Sure one
shouldn't but a price on life but the fact of the matter is, is that people
do it every day.

Now since your such an expert and believe in having earth grounds outweigh
any cost then why not do it for the guy for free? Why don't you also
compaign to get all applicances to support earth ground?

Can you do me a favor though? Can you look at the number of people killed a
year by toasters? How bout electrical shocks from appliances in general? How
bout electricity in general? Compare that with people dieing by car crashes.

The fact is your a saftey nutt. There are hundreds of millions of homes in
the world that don't use earth ground and very few people die from it. A
properly designed device can go a long why without earth ground. All earth
ground is is a extra measure of safety. If they wanted you could add 10
earth grounds and it wouldn't make a device any safer if it wasn't used
properly and wouldn't add anything over just one ground(for obivous
reasons).

I never claimed that earth ground was evil or bad... but there are practical
considerations that you easily overlook.

The OP said

"The house's plugs aren't grounded. Will this affect the efficacy of a
surge protector?
Is the computer at risk or just the AC adapter?"

And the fucking fact of the matter is that earth ground plays no role in the
efficiency because netural is approximately earth ground(in theoretically
they should be equivilent if it wasn't for resistance).

This is why your wrong in that you keep arguing about something that no one
asked.

Now if he asked about the safety it would be an entirely different matter...
and its ok to point out that rewiring the house would go a long way for
safety factors.

Now if you really want to prove to me that your write about the OP's
question and that I'm wrong then show me a circuit that
improves(significantly) its surge capabilities by using earth ground over
one that doesn't.

Talking about safety has nothing to do with it cause I don't give a ***
about that. Its not what the OP asked and I'm sure many people have pointed
how why earth ground is used. You can beat that nail to death but it isn't
going to change anything. You can also talk about how you have been rewiring
houses since you were a baby shitting in your diapers and pissing in your
mouth but it doesn't change any of the facts. If you want to try and prove
something then do it with science and not authority cause I don't give a
*** if your the president of the electrical satefy club at your local HS.

Show me a circuit that significantly increases the surge protection that
uses earth ground to accomplish it over the best that can be done without
out using ground. Why not the worse? Because then you'll show me a circuit
without any protection and any ground and claim one with a ground and MOV
works better.

.

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