Re: Latest News

From: R. Steve Walz (rstevew_at_armory.com)
Date: 11/26/04 

Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 07:56:19 GMT

Tom Seim wrote:
>
> > > Is your government elected or appointed?
> > --------------------
> > Let's pretend you have a mind.
>
> Testy, are we?
>
> > What does Democratic Majority mean everywhere in my writings?
>
> I have NO IDEA!
-----------------------
Then Google me and read, or else read a while before responding.

 
> > > So you are going to dismantle the monetary system.
> > ---------------------------
> > Hmmmm, you're certainly dense, aren't you?
>
> The sign of a shallow mind: no response, then call me a name.
-----------------------------
Read me before shooting off your mouth.

 
> > > > rendered to the State for basic commodities and consumer items.
> > > > All grown and made products are rendered to the State for their
> > > > agreed labor hours credit amortized over the whole of each product.
> > > >
> > > > If it takes a total of 300 labor hours to make 3000 widgets from
> > > > materials mined or harvested to parts composing it, to the final
> > > > assemblage, then each costs a tenth of an hour. Unless crippled,
> > > > veryone is required to work the democratically agreed minimum hours
> > > > to meet basic needs or else they don't eat and it is illegal to even
> > > > feed them.
> > >
> > > From each according to their abilities, to each according to their
> > > needs.
> > ------------------------------
> > Nope. Read it again.
> > You're regurgitating your brainwashing from high school.
>
> Better do a spell check.
>
>
> > > > If they want more they sign up for more labor hours over their
> > > > minimum, with which to buy consumer items. The only wealth that
> > > > would even be possible is in personal property. Used items can be
> > > > freely traded at weekly local flea markets.
> > > >
> > > > The State mandates that repair parts be available indefinitely for
> > > > anything at cost.
> > >
> > > How are you going to set costs without a monetary system?
> > ----------------------------
> > Every product has a costs assessment in labor hours following it,
> > from wells, mines and farms to factories right up to delivery as
> > a product, and from that the price of each item in labor hours
> > is amortized.
>
> Like I said, you've eliminated the monetary system.
-----------------------------------------
Duh.

 
> > > Who pays to maintain an inventory of spare?
> > ------------------------------
> > Who does now? We do. Now figure out how that can be done my way.
> > How stupid are you? Orders for spares stock are pre-ordered for
> > products by the repair facilities as their normal stock of supplies,
> > just as any factory does.
>
> Shame, shame. More name calling- typical of dogmatics. Without an
> economic incentive, nobody is going to maintain ANY kind of an
> inventory.
----------------------------------------
Nonsense, incentive is required only where there are independent
economic agents, which are never actually independent anyway.

The People can assign labor to build required inventory as needed.

 
> > > How do you account for the inevitable
> > > loses incurred on providing spares "at cost"?
> > ------------------------------------
> > Simple, you study that phenomenon and justify a slightly higher price
> > in labor hours of those goods because of it, represented by each
> > product item's price by division of its costs for the whole lot.
> >
> > The State gains its costs for medical and care of the infirm in a
> > similar way, by costing each person an equal minimum labor hour
> > quota they must work to receive food, power, telecom, gas, recycle,
> > and water. This "tax" on things is price-inherent, not seen explicitly
> > for any one item.
>
> This is your "new" monetary system - trading of labor hours. People
> will have a disincentive to pursue higher education because their
> labor is valued equally to unskilled labor.
------------------------------
Education is paid like a job, once approved by the Majority. We study
how much we can afford to devote to education, and people apply for
the positions. They are paid a full wage to result in specific
perfformance. Once educated they want towork because if you don't
you starve and they much prefer a sit-down job with ideas and dry
warm clothes and a hot cup of coffee at hand than digging ditches
in the rain and cold. I tried unskilled labor, and I'd have gone to
school all over again for the same money, hell for a while, LESS
money!

 
> > > If you can make something the rest of us want on
> > > > your compound then you can petition to work at home, and be paid for
> > > > supplies and tools as well, but otherewise you work at a publically
> > > > owned factory or farm.
> > > >
> > > > If you want something and can find enough other people who do you
> > > > can get the State to assign labor credit to anyone who wants to make
> > > > that item at an agreed exchange rate based on how long other skilled
> > > > workers in similar fields agree it would cost in hours of labor.
> > >
> > > So the State decides what will be produced.
> > --------------------------------
> > No, each person both orders things from the Catalog, and adds items
>
> Catalog, with a capital "C". Sounds like something passed down from
> the "State".
-----------------------------
Like the "Net"? Gee. That worked out okay.

 
> > to it by submitting requests online in a kind of eco-political eBay
> > for people to organize who want some new kind of product, they present
> > it to everyone, and they ask that orders for such a product by collected
> > and that these orders become standing work-orders for that
> > product to be produced, then people who want more work can offer to
> > manufacture it at any factory with suitable space and tools, or they
> > can ask that a new factory be built for it and submit evidence that
> > it would be well-used. If a hobby group wants certain specialty items
> > produced, it simply submits its orders to the local Committee of the
> > People that meets several times a week. If approved, they compete for
>
> Who "approves" what?
------------------------------
By your friends and neighbors in the political Majority.

 
> > any remaining materials and factory space, or they are requested to
> > pursue its manufacture as a hobby or avocation in their home compounds
> > for a bit longer till there is more demand. If they can show demand
> > and ability and get labor hour quotes approved those who manufacture
> > them, even on a small scale, can be paid labor hours to do so. If
> > they can simply show orders and provide an acceptable quote for labor
> > then they can be paid labor hours and they sell the product to the
> > State Catalog for sale.
> >
> >
> > > > Everything of this sort is decided locally at the Society meeting
> > > > twice a week by whomever shows up to do it. People are lenient
> > > > with each other because they want support for their own desires
> > > > as well.
> > > >
> > > > You order things before they are produced, and they aren't produced
> > > > for your order unless you order them.
> > >
> > > So mass production is gone. And, along with it, low-priced goods.
> > -------------
> > Not at all, we simply make things in huge lots when an order for that
> > many accumulates, unless the People vote it a critical commodity.
> >
> >
> > > Products will be hand made at very high cost. Take you average car.
> > > How can you organize a supply chain when your "vendors" have no idea
> > > what quantities you will be ordering? And when you do order, the
> > > vendors will have to supply the parts at cost.
> > ------------------------------------------
> > In reality everything is done "at cost", profit is merely the rich
> > stealing a portion of the wage of the laborers and then partially
> > inflating the exchange medium without fully correcting for that.
> > Now that there are no rich to do so, cost is all that anything
> > requires. Investment is only done by the People as the State.
>
> Profit is the reward for taking a risk,
------------------
Really? Risking what, being poor? What do the poor deserve for
"risking being poor"?? Oh, and only those who win get the reward,
meaning they never actually "risked" anything at ALL, now, did
they?? Upon close examination earning by risking is a loser idea.

> such as making a product that
> nobody wants. Take away the reward, profit, and nobody will take the
> risk, i.e. no products. And you don't have to be "rich" to do this -
> small businesspeople do it every day.
------------------------
Why don't they just ASK the People what they want, and since it is
the People who ACTUALLY have to work to BUILD those things anyway,
why don't you realize that it is the People who actually DO it, PAY
for it, and then BUY it, so THEY SHOULD DECIDE WHAT TO MAKE IN THE
FIRST PLACE!! The only reason the rich do it is because they STOLE
the money from the workers so that THEY don't have the money to do
it!! Employing rich lazy criminals who only have their own wealth to
protect decide what everyone MIGHT wanr is REALLY NOT a good idea!
You wind up with dislocated workers who lose their jobs and have to
move sacrificing families, loss of value in their homes, their savings,
etc! Bad public policy to permit rich who steal profit from workers.
Have the People keep this "profit" for their own endeavors, since
if everyone profits equally, then profit is meaningless and can
disappear. The actual investment in neew endeavors is the promise
of extra available labor, not some rich ***'s jewelry. Make gold
and diamonds worth nothing by law except as industrial tool metals!

> > > > If we all decide we have enough
> > > > stuff for a month or two, we go home and pursue our hobbies after our
> > > > minimum hour jobs until enough people want new things. They literally
> > > > arrange with others who ALSO want more "stuff" to make it for one
> > > > another, via the computerized ordering system
> > >
> > > Forget about computers - this is an extremely heavily capitalized
> > > industry that will be vaporized by your system.
> > ----------------------------------------
> > Nonsense. No "capital" from "rich" is required. The People's State
> > alots extra labor to begin new endeavors or tool-up for a new run.
> > This is done in factories all the time.
> >
> > That is actually what is happening anyway, it is simply disguised
> > as the "rich" funding new endeavors by their stolen wealth and by
> > their greed dictating what the society will next produce.
>
> Consumers dictate what will be produced - except in your personal
> hell.
---------------------------------
Suuuuuure they do, like all the stupid plastic *** this culture pays
to store that no one will ever want, and which labor value will now
be lost when they have to be recycled! Tons of thighmasters and bust
developers still sit in warehouses, hell, Denver and Omaha have huge
cheap warehouses full of thousands of tons of plastic losers which
wasted massive amounts of petroleum and thousands of human labor
hours at low wages, so the rich could steal profit from the sale of
the minority of these crap items that actually sold!!

> > > What size population are you talking about? It takes 5000 people just
> > > to issue Social Security checks when all steps in the process are
> > > considered.
> > --------------------------------------------
> > But not in one town or city. Nor do we need any such without "money".
> > It is totally scalable.
> >
> > -Steve
>
> GOOD LUCK! You will be asking everybody with savings to give those
> savings up, hardly a winning strategy. But, then again, you don't
> REALLY have any expectations of winning.
-------------
What are they saving for, a retirement, a house??? My system gives
them their house, and guarantees their retirement. Saving for
anything else is properly done with labor hours.
Steve