Re: Software for a beginner to design and learn about circuits with?

From: Kevin Aylward (salesEXTRACT_at_anasoft.co.uk)
Date: 11/30/04 

Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:55:31 GMT

David L. Jones wrote:
> Kevin Aylward wrote:
>> David L. Jones wrote:
>>> msv-groups wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I'm interested in learning about circuitry as a hobby and to
>>>> eventually create a few small projects that I had in mind, such as
>>>> guitar pedals
>>>
>>>> and a few audio devices, but obviously I have to start small.
>>>>
>>>> I'm somewhat competent with programming/mathematics, have some
> text
>>>> books, and I do know a -little- analogue+digital circuit theory,
>>>> but I've never had a real hands-on attempt by myself before so
>>>> I'll be pretty much attacking this as though I know nothing.
>>>>
>>>> Can anyone recommend some software (free or cheap) that would be
>>>> good
>>>
>>>> for a beginner to use to learn about circuit behaviour and design
>>>> some circuits with? Are there programs out there that actually
>>>> allow you to drop in popular microcontrollers and model their
>>>> behaviour as well?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Matt.
>>>
>>> Someones gotta say it... :->
>>>
>>> Forget simulation software. The best way to learn is to get
> yourself
>>> the following:
>>> - A multimeter
>>> - An oscilloscope
>>> - A function generator
>>> - A breadboard
>>> - A bunch of components.
>>>
>>> Then build stuff, you'll learn a lot more - really.
>>> You said it yourself, you don't have enough "hands-on" experience.
>>> Software ain't hands-on.
>>
>>>
>>> If you *really* want sofwtare, try something purpose designed here:
>>> http://www.emona.com.au/catalogue/Section_23/index.html
>>> I think I have seen them on ebay too.
>>
>> EWB is crap and essentially useless. Its that sort of software that
>> literally forced me to write my own as I wasn't about to pay several
>> $1000 for PSpice.
>>
>>>
>>> Forget the "spice" type packages, they are not suitable for
>>> beginners. Regards
>>> Dave :)
>>
>> I disagree completly. Of course I strongly agree that there is no
>> substitute for hands on experience. I myself stated with electronic
>> kits at the age of 11. The real world gets you a feel that is most
>> certainly missing in simulation software. However...my opinion is
>> that spice is
>
>> still a wonderful complement for beginners. It allows essentially,
> 95%
>> of the real world to be fully accounted for. There is so much you can
>
>> effectively do in spice and not keep blowing up components.
>
> But that's the whole point. When you blow components up, when you wire
> something in backwards, when you read the colour code wrong and goof
> up a value, when you short something out, when you use your test
> instrument incorrectly, when you load down your circuit, when your
> opamp oscillates because the leads are too long, when your LED lights
> up, when your speaker buzzes, when your relay clicks, when your
> circuit doesn't work and you have to actually troubleshoot it - thats
> when you actually LEARN!

Yes, but this is just one/some of the aspects. One does exactly the same
trouble shooting in the virtual world. Sure, there are a few effects
that would not be put into the model by beginners, but so what.
Beginners aren't going to get things perfect anyway.

>
> None of this happens in software, unless you know the traps and
> actually program them in! Catch 22?
>
> Beginners need to play with hardware to start out with, not software.

What *actual* real evidence do you have that this is a good way to start
learning circuit practise, other than a gut feeling?

> Simulators can come later when you are more advanced and want to play
> with the finer details.

I simply don't agree. You have to walk before you can run. Simulators
can get you walking in lesser time with less bother. You simply don't
have to worry about getting all these supplies of parts together.

Simulaters are not restricted to the finer details. Indeed their ability
to use ideal models makes it much easier to get the feel for the core
ideas.

>
> I won't disagree that simulators are useful tools, they are great, and
> are very useful for intermeadiate to advanced people.

And absolutly for beginners as well. As noted, I don't disagree in
anyway of what you said about the value of real bench work, my point is
that there are many other of equally useful things to be learned by
beginners using spice. For starters, its so much easier to get something
up and running and plot waveforms. There are many things that it is very
difficult to do in the real world.

As I also noted, its a paradigm shift. One needs to get in step with the
times.

>
> I for one use CircuitMaker 2000 and it's great.
>
>> The proof of
>> this is that in pro i.c design some can regularly ship 1st time
>> product on first past, and these can be very large circuits.
>
> The relevance to beginners?

The relevance of this is that lab work can actually be dispensed with in
real life. We have proof that simulation can, on many occasions, be all
that is needed to make real world designs.

>
>> *Today*, one
>> doesn't have to practise in the real world to learn how to do things
>> in the real world, flight simulators are proof of this.
>
> You would trust your life to a pilot that has zero hours in the actual
> air?
> I wouldn't!

Thats besides the point.

Planes, today, essentially, don't need pilots at all.

>
>> Most arguments on not using spice are from, the well I didn't start
>> that way, so it aint goanna be useful. The world has moved on. One
>> needs
> to
>> change ones mind set. For me, it would have been great to have had
>> spice all those years ago.
>
> I'm not arguing that simulators aren't useful, they are. I'm arguing
> that a beginner should not use them until they learn the REAL stuff
> first.
>

My argument is that yes, beginners should, today, be using simulators
from day one in *addition* to doing real bench work. For the most part
it truly makes no difference whether someone wires up transistors on the
bench or on a computer screen. Sure there are a few differences, as we
know, like blowing up devices, but this is irrelevant. *Most* of
electronics can be learned in the virtual world. This is a simple fact.
Your arguing that just because spice is not 100% exact, we shouldnt use
it as a key tool tool. I disagree.

Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

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