Re: [OT] I hate being American

From: Jeffrey Turner (jturner_at_localnet.com)
Date: 01/01/05 

Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 18:32:11 -0500

John Larkin wrote:
> On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 12:40:46 -0500, Jeffrey Turner
> <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
>>John Larkin wrote:
>>>On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 08:18:30 +0100, "Laura" <laura@nospam.me> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Explain how christian fundamentalist hate-mongers are any better than
>>>>islamic fundamentalist ditto. Both seem completely and utterly deranged to
>>>>me.
>>>
>>>The Christians aren't into suicide bombing, and they let their women
>>>drive.
>>
>>Women aren't allowed to drive only in that good friend of the
>>US, Saudi Arabia. Christian fundamentalists aren't big on
>>women's rights in general - reproductive freedom, for one.
>>
>>>>As for your dreams of empire... well, you'd have to turn America into a
>>>>totalitarian state (how about a nice theocracy?) pretty quick - within the
>>>>next 4 years, preferably - and abolish (or turn into even more of a farce)
>>>>the electoral process. If America remains a democracy, the people will tire
>>>>of war and elect someone who promises to end it. That's the end of global
>>>>empire aspirations right there, and back to covertly influencing other
>>>>nations in ways favourable to America (which will eventually backfire, as
>>>>usual).
>>>
>>>In 1942, the world was down to about a dozen democracies. Since just
>>>1980, over 80 countries have transitioned to democracy. 25 years ago,
>>>1/3 of the world's countries held free elections; today, it's 2/3.
>>>
>>>Reconcile those numbers with "global empire" and "backfire."
>>
>>You mean like Haiti, where the US spirited off the elected
>>president in the middle of the night? Or Nicaragua, where the
>>US supported an army of torturers and used blackmail and
>>millions of dollars of advertising to convince the populace to
>>elect the government chosen by the US? Or are you talking
>>about US complicity in the coups in Chile '73 or Iran '58?
>>Or the US's good friend Musharraf in Pakistan who overthrew the
>>elected government?
>
> I'm talking about the bottom line: a world working its way toward
> universal tolerance and democracy, a world without war.

That might have flown if the US hadn't started two wars in the
last three years.

> Democracies don't go to war with each other.

Only if you arbitrarily declare that Grenada wasn't a democracy
and Nicaragua wasn't a democracy (even though international
observers validated the election of the Sandanistas) or that the
Contras weren't really an army of American mercenaries, and that
the US carrying out a coup against Haiti wasn't an act of war,
and that the CIA coup against Iran wasn't an act of war, and the
coup against Guatemala wasn't an act of war and Panama wasn't a
democracy and CIA support for the coups in Chile and Venezuela
weren't acts of war.

> Germany, Italy, Austria, and Japan
> got democracy at the end of a gun, and they came out OK.

Germany WAS a democracy when Hitler came to power.

> And, thankfully, the Cold War and its excesses are over. It's called
> "progress."

You replace a cold war against "Communism" with a hot war
against "Terrorism" and call it progress? Not that the Cold War
was cold outside of Europe.

--Jeff 

-- 
It is only those who have neither
fired a shot nor heard the shrieks
and groans of the wounded who cry
aloud for blood, more vengeance, more
desolation.  War is hell.
--William Tecumseh Sherman
In war, there are no unwounded soldiers.
--Jose Narosky
The urge to save humanity is almost
always a false front for the urge to
rule.
--H.L. Mencken

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