Re: Mnemonics

Roger Johansson wrote:
Joerg wrote: 

How has the creationist religion influenced the human mind during
all these thousands of years?
What can we do to counter that influence and find real peace of
mind?

I find real peace of mind in it. 

Could you define in more concrete terms what it is you find "real peace
of mind" in?
Is it the creationist ideology, or the speeded mind which is the result
of the creationist system?
Is it the social processes, mobbing and strong convictions?
Gender roles which takes care of the foreplay, so you don't have to use
your own fantasy to have sex?
Or is it the power structure of the social field which creationism
creates?

What part(s) of the creationist tradition is most valuable to you?

I've spoken with Joerg on this issue, and while I don't pretend to speak for him he has echoed what most Xtians (and a few Christians) say; it's the structure.

How can we change the religious lifestyle which causes so much
suffering?


Well, I don't want to change it. It helps me in easing the suffering
of others through ministry.


So you want to uphold the rule of violence so you can use that violence
to do good?
You want to keep the people in mental slavery so you can have power
over them, so you can help them?
Don't you realize that it is the power system, based on violence, which
is the main problem? The strong people who rule do not realize that the
power they have is based on fear instilled in the minds of the less
fortunate. Fear and violence are fundamental parts of the creationist
system. You would not get that speeded state of mind, the holy spirit,
without fear and anger as the basis for the male personality.

You forget that much of religion and philosophy (and science, for that matter) are merely codifications of our hardwired behavior patterns. Paternalism and the Nuclear Family are _not_ arbitrary social constructs but rather biological imperatives.

We _have_ those patterns and imperatives, including gender roles, whether or not you or anyone else likes it. Any religion or philosophy (frinst Radical Feminism) that fails to take them into account has negative worth as it tries to force us to behave in ways we simply cannot.

Those that Evangelism is most successfully used on are those with no structure or a flawed structure to their lives. Give them a less-flawed structure and things start going right in their lives. If it didn't work, it wouldn't have lasted so long.

Social life is not based on peace and rational thinking, it is based on
the same system we see in flocks of apes, where the young men are
running around screaming and throwing sticks and stones, to impress the
females and to scare each other. The creationist tradition conserves
and justifies a continuation of the stone age power system into a
modern time when we could have a much simpler and easier life style. It
would allow us to think clearer if we got rid of all this creationism,
all determined and grim male faces, all use of threats and violence as
methods to treat people.


  What a lovely fantasy.

We could let young girls grow up in peace, instead of throwing them out
to become very strong-minded love machines.
We could let boys learn about electronics and science instead of
forcing them to learn to fight and learn to be tough.


  Yep, a fantasy. We are hardwired to do these latter things.

Injustice and suffering has often been inflincted (wrongly) in the
name of religion. By people that never understood what scripture
really says or who didn't want to understand.


Suffering is not a small side effect to religion, it is a central part
of religion.

That's because suffering is a _real_ part of life. Finding that out has obviously caused you to suffer.

What the scriptures from ancient history actually say is of less
importance to most believers. They like the lifestyle, the gender
roles, the creation of the eternal love, the creation of male minds,
the creation of female minds, the creation of the holy matrimony
(controlled by society), the creation of a dualistic society, divided
into "heaven" and "hell" (heaven and earth).

Male and female minds are not "created", by man or deity; they simply are. Get over it.

The same is true for laws and regulations. 

The difference is that laws and modern civilized rules are not based in
a stone age lifestyle and ideology.
The rules we can agree on in democratic order are better than a stone
age ideology based on violence, and we can change them until we are
happy with them.

Laws are a good tool in
keeping a society honest and respectful. 

That is not the purpose of the law. The purpose of the law is to
establish rules we all have to follow, so we get a society we can live
in. Controlling people's minds is a religious idea, which is not
supported by modern law.

No, it isn't a religious idea. Go back to yout troupe of apes; everybody obeys the alpha male for two good reasons. Short-term, he'll whip your ass if you don't; long term, he knows how to survive and so will you if you copy his behaviors.

"Living in the fear of God" is not a good idea in a modern world. Fear
causes violence, and that is the basis for creationism.

Nope. You're close though; fear causes caution and caution increases the odds of survival.

However, sometimes their
interpretation by judges doesn't. The latest example: A high court
found it ok that local authorities can take away a house if someone
else builds something there that generates more in taxes. Obviously
it is ok to kick grandma out of her home. So far for the peace of
mind.


The difference between law and religion is that we can always make the
law better, but religion cannot change, it uses the same rules as
people did in the stone age.

Our brains and emotional hardware (adrenals etc) have not changed over that short period.

The actual content of the old scriptures, which very few people understand and are interested in, is a long discussion about
creationism. Jesus and Moses were both big reformers of the system. But they did not think far enough to abolish the system completely.
Moses invented the law, which applies equally to everybody, before him
the initiated could do whatever they liked to the non-initiated. 

  And after him, slavery was codified but still legal.

Jesus put forward strong criticism of the basis of creationism, but he
was assimilated by the church. They invented a story around Jesus,
creating a creationist story about him instead of what he actually said.

For example what happened after he had died, resurrection on the third
day, etc.. that is the creationist story they used to encapsulate his
own words which were so dangerous for the church.

Exactly the same happened in China. A great thinker, Lao-Tzu, wrote a
very good book against creationism. The creationists created a story
around Lao-Tzu, that he walked away and disappeared after writing the
book, etc.. which encapsulated his own words in a creationist container.

When he died his teachings were immediately transformed into a
worshipping religion, full of mysticism and creationism. It has also
made it difficult to find a translation of Tao-te-Ching which is not
bent beyond recognition by creationists who tried all they could to
change the book into a creationist message.

Sigh. You might look into Buddhism about the remediation of suffering.

To sneak back to the topic, mnemonics are a very useful shorthand, but it's a good idea to occasionally re-examine the longhand version for validity.

  Mark L. Fergerson

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Mnemonics
    ... >> How has the creationist religion influenced the human mind during ... Or is it the power structure of the social field which creationism ... That is not the purpose of the law. ...
    (sci.electronics.design)
  • Re: The Middle Ground.
    ... It's very rare to see a committed creationist change his mind, ... other web and print resources that explain how silly creationism is. ... I thought it was fun. ... arrogant post. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: The Middle Ground.
    ... divide us - origins - the sides seem taken and the lines clearly ... drawn. ... It's very rare to see a committed creationist change his mind, ... other web and print resources that explain how silly creationism is. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: What are human rights, really?
    ... > To understand the issue you need to know what "God" means. ... > creationism, that is to exist in the existential meaning of the word. ... > It is a different state of mind, love manipulated to become a drug. ... > God is a name for that higher state of mind. ...
    (soc.rights.human)
  • Cantors Theory: Mathematical creationism
    ... the mathematical sciences as Creationism theory has to the physical ... Both Cantor's theory and Creationism theory are founded on the ... A new world view, and a new paradigm for mathematics, have emerged ... We now think of the brain as a computer, and the mind as the software ...
    (sci.math)