Re: not a new subject - women in electronics and computing?

fractal.curves@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
As for addressing (2), the lack of desire in young women to become
engineers, I think here's where we should look at the differences in
motivating factors between girls and boys. So, the question is, what
truly motivates a guy to become an engineer? And, if (1) didn't exist,
would it also motivate women? If you show a girl the Golden Gate
bridge, does she think "I wish I could build that?" or does she think
"Hmm, I ought to get a guy to build that for me?". I think the best way
to find out is to *ask* young girls what motivates them! You'll get the
usual statistical distribution of motivating factors, but at least it's
better than guessing ;). To avoid peer pressure, you ought to ask them
to jot down their answers on a blank piece of paper, anonymously, and
stick 'em in a box. And to be absolutely honest about their answers.
Because it doesn't matter if a girl wants to build the Golden Gate
bridge herself, or have one built for her. The end result is that she
caused the bridge to be built.

Wrong.

I tried to hold my tongue and be dimplomatic when the OP first broached
the issue, but not any longer. The last statement the the paragraph
above substantiates what some of us have been saying.

IT DOES MATTER.

Any "real" engineer who likes bridge-building will tell you that there
is a strong, visceral satisfaction that comes from building bridges.
This is not negotiable. I 100% refuse to call someone who is not a
bridge engineer a bridge engineer. I will not do that for a man. I
will not do that for a woman.

Also note: men like to kill people with devices we build. It gives us
pleasure. When we are designing the control systems, we are thinking
about optimal damage and maximal carnage.

Breast feed or build a missile that has high-end optics to makes sure
the target is found and obliterated? I choose the latter. I cannot do
the former if I tried.

Most of us do *not* prefer flowers and a gift card as a gift. Some of
us would rather blow off some holidays, especially Valentine's day.
Good grief!

And with regard to "collaborative projects:"

SOME OF US ARE SO UNINTERESTED IN THE SOCIAL ASPECT OF AN INHERENTLY
SCIENTIFICALLY-ORIENTED PROJECT THAT THE THOUGHT OF "INTEGRATING" THAT
ASPECT MAKES US WANT TO PUKE.

Now if you are talking about a project to feed children in Africa,
where the pre-stated fundamental goal is to help people, then *that's*
different. But for me, I am repeatedly disgusted when I see
"researchers" doing what is supposed to be raw, fundamentally,
scientifically-oriented research, earning +$100,000.00/year US, doing
instead what could be characterized tele-hugging.

I also find it comical when woman says, "I don't know what I want. I
like working with people."

Really? No sh*t!!! You like working with people? I never would have
guessed that!

One reason I get so heated on this has to do with work. There were
women working in a moderate technical capacity at my job. I knew that,
when I needed something from a man, I would go and ask, and it would be
done. If I had to yell at him, I would yell, and be done. With the
women, not only did I not ever yell, but I noticed that, little things
mattered. For example, I would get a far better response from one of
the female employees if I would "make the morning connection" before
talking shop. With the guys, I could get straight to business.

Anything that is said with regard to this topic is, by its very nature,
subjective, and speculative, not in the sense that it causes reason for
evaluation of statements, but in the sense that it cannot be "proven",
like proving, say, Fermat's Little Theorem. What irritates me, however,
is the dishonesty exhibited by women (and some others) when discussing
this topic.

Women *know* themselves. They know their character. Selma Hayek
certainly does. She made this statement and got major heat from
feminist groups for saying it: ""And let me tell you something - all
women are manipulative. It's in our instinct and it's very scary. All
the feminists are going to kill me for saying this, but it's true."

I would argue that parts of womens brains are reserved for perceiving
things that the average male does not. There are so many generalities
that are, in general, applicable to women, that if I were to start
typing now, I'd problably finish 9 hours later.

A BIT OF HISTORY:

When I was a young boy, male/female equality was in vogue. Children
were constantly bombarded with statements like, "And men are no better
than women. Women should have equal opportunity to...opportunity to
abc.....xyz...." My (internal ) response too that was. "So. You said
that 2 months ago. Why do they keep making a big deal about equality.
We know. 50/50. Be fair to each other. We get it. We can do that
now."

Then I grew up. I got to know a wide range of women, from many walks
in life, from the lowest of the low who would rob you blind while you
changed the tire on her car, to some who were wealthy and attended the
most prestigious institutions who could do Smith Charts in her head
without a Smith Chart. I have met and known closely: American,
Chinese, Polish, Canadian, Serbo-Croatian, Bulgarian, Belgian, German,
Dutch, English, Australian, French, Venezuelan, Mexican, Indian,
Irish...and endless list. I have several sisters of my own. And by
virtue of my parents profession, from the ages of 12-17, I was never
more than 80 metres away from at least 40 girls, all from about 11-17
in age, all whose behavior I monitored on occasion as a nuclear
physicist might monitor control rods in nuclear reactor. I watched
them attentively. You cannot tell me that there are no inherent
differences, or that the differences that exist are due to environment.
At dinner I always knew how to get dessert from my sister. I'd walk
toward her with my hand closed, as if to hold a spider, and the
screaming would commence, she would leave the table, and there it was.
If I had tried that with any of my brothers, I would have gotten
smashed.

Women, in general, *do* have peculiar identifiable behavior patterns
and desires, just as men do. It is hypocritical for women who know
this to be true to imply otherwise. It is even more disparaging to
imply, at least in 2006, that men or society is somehow the cause.

And finally, I feel sorry for all the good people in the academy who
bend over backward to level the playing field. I feel sorry for all
the scouts who go to top schools in Europe, Asia, and America trying to
find the best candidates.

This topic is actually much broader than women in science. This topic
is actually related to the Feminine Mystique, and for that matter, the
Masculine Mystique. It is related to a simple question:

"What do women want?"

What motivates them?

1. Ever wonder why, if a man is cheating on his girlfriend, the
girlfriend, upon catching him, will instinctively attack the other
woman, regardless of whether it was the other woman's fault?

2. Ever wonder why girls start to exhibit "odd", seemingly
inexplicable behavior around the age of 7 or 8. (Yes, boys do weird
things too, but it is a different kind of weird.).

3. Ever wonder why a woman is more likely to be receptive to a man
after she has been fed than before?

Do you watch the Discovery Channel at all?

I could add 100's to this list marking remarkable differences between
men and women, including the fact that a man is attractice to the curve
of a woman's breast as he sees the side of it while watching her from
behind. Gee, I don't remember attending
liking-the-curve-of-a-woman's-breast school. Maybe I was too young to
remember when those classes were held. My sister and I, 2 years apart,
had access to the same TV's, motors, magnets, essentially everything at
home when we were small children. I played with the magnets and motors
incessantly, and routinely took apart the television. She was so
uninterested. This started at a very young age, before 5, so I know it
is not nurture.

Since most of the people reading this are probably male, it stands to
reason that we less able than the women here to pry into the minds of
young women and figure out what they want. Why don't you do us all a
favor? Since you are female, go ask these young women: "Tell me,
really really tell me, exactly why is it that you prefer to go to that
party where there are cute young boys instead of playing with your new
1GHz scope?"

Then come back and tell us.

I would be nice if you could ask women who would be characterized as
female by a licensed endocrinologist/sexologist. [If I had a nickel
for every time I learned that a woman compteting aggressively in a
traditionally male-oriented sport revealed that she was not exactly
heterosexual...as if you could not tell from her Titanium jaw-line,
sizable frontal plate, muscular thighs, flat chest, and hips as so
straight that they would rival a laser edge.]

P.S. In defense of my sister who is a neuroscientist having done work
at Johns Hopkins, and other women like her, I concede that there *are*
women who "go for the real deal." When she opens her mouth, that
frilly-whatever-you-call it chatter about people and relations and
connecting and all that poo is absent. Instead, I hear is a bunch of
stuff about protein folding that I cannot understand. But that is the
rule, not the exception. I have other women friends who are
technically (no pun intended) scientists, but in fact, their work could
more accurately be characterized as social science.

-Le Chaud Lapin-

.

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