Re: schematics and PCB design software. what's best?

JeffM wrote:

JeffM wrote:

Cadsoft [is] now also in the DRM business[...]

Before re-using anyone else's library,
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.arch.embedded/browse_frm/thread/f794e82d26b59e18/d7cf4149edb93ac7?q=*-*-website+reuse+paying.*+*-I-will-switch+cracked-*+*.would.not.help.*+zzz+after-*-*-version-*+copied+*.*.unlock.*.designs+*-*-*-*-exchange-*-*-*-*-third-party+reused+qq+*-*-single-bit-*-*-*-*+useless+*-*-*-projects-could-no-longer-be-opened
find out how to un-DRM the documents that are created with it.


Joerg wrote:

That's about schematics generated with a cracked copy.


*Specifically* it's about the software not warning a **legit** user
AS HE IS DOING SOMETHING **in good faith**
that he is about to do something against the rules
then LATER finding that he has been locked out of his work product.


Yes, they should have provided a mechanism that instantly beeps. AFAIK they now do but couldn't avoid that people have old files containing hacked stuff that used to work in 3.51 or whatever and now don't in 4.16. That's because this copy protection stuff wasn't implemented in their older versions.


Not an issue for me
since I never copy parts of schematics from anywhere.


The only way to avoid this nonsense--besides avoiding Cadsoft
entirely.


Copying stuff and then using it for commercial purposes
is, well, not quite within my understanding of ethics and etiquette.


Library parts?? C'mon.


I mentioned further below that library parts are freely distributed. In contrast to many, many other CAD packages where companies use that as a cash cow (and I consequently do not buy their CAD).


This has generated some noise among Cadsoft users
since it does inconvenience hobby users.


One of the big selling points of EAGLE (years back)
was that you could distribute your files
and others could use the demo version to *view* and/or *print* them.
Really great for hobbyists (and the pros who publish projects)
--until Cadsoft shot themselves in the foot.


Yes, their implementation was rather <censored>.


But ok, they've got to do something against hackers ripping them off.
I doubt that their software engineers are working for free.


COMPLETELY evades the point.
As usual with DRM, the crackers find ways around the limitations
and the legit, fully-paid customers are the ones who get screwed.


Nope. If you use a hacked version for hobby that's one issue. But if you use a hacked version, say, as a consultant it'll be only a matter of time until a big egg flies into your face. That happens the instant a client wants to open your files on his legal copy. Now that would be quite an embarrassment, wouldn't it?

Think of it like a bank. A robber manages to pry their money, runs off into the street and thinks he has it made. Gets into his car and POOF, indelible ink oozes all over the bills.


Unlike many other CAD packages
Eagle does not require those dreaded dongles.
That is a serious plus in my eyes.


I used to agree
--until they started spitting on their paid customers in other ways.


Any more gripes besides this copyright thing? I don't have any, other than the fact that they don't seem to understand how important a hierarchical *** structure is.



BTW libraries are another serious upside for Eagle.


I used to agree.


Other [companies] want serious Dollars for a new library.
Cadsoft lets you download it for free.


...if you want to play Russian Roulette.


It's give and take, with most libraries contributed by users.


Again: How do you know that the library isn't infected?
How do you get assurance BEFORE THE FACT
that you won't be locked out of your documents by using it?


AFAIK it's not libraries but schematics that get infected. Also, the libraries are posted on the Cadsoft server as a bonus service. Even with the freeware version you are allowed to use them. I never ran into this copyright issue but I'd assume anything infected just would not load into my licensed version. I don't think I can be locked out of my own docs when the only version I have and use is licensed by Cadsoft.


Which also means you must take them with a grain of salt
and thoroughly check things like footprints
before using a part from a foreign library.


The *least* of your problems with an EAGLE *.LBR these days.


Again, for some reason I never had a lib problem. Ever. Other than footprints I didn't like. But since I don't do layouts this doesn't matter that much.


I adopted the habit of creating my own parts.


...and it is now the ONLY way to *assure* no DRM madness.


I doubt that any of the libs on the Cadsoft server are infested.


Eagle is also remarkably inexpensive compared to products such as OrCad.


Amen.


That was one serious motivator for me to switch.


Amen.


But the main motivator was the support which is absolutely stellar.


If, by "support" you mean **a newsgroup** (2 groups, actually): Yes.


It's more than two. English isn't the only language on the planet ;-)

Cadsoft's support goes way beyond that. Whenever I had issues, usually with netlist ports to other companies' CAD systems, I received a detailed response from a Cadsoft engineer in under 24 hours. Considering that there is a 9h time zone difference that is nothing short of remarkable. And this is not the usual "Is it plugged in?" support, they provided a detailed answer that allowed me to fix the problem.

The best: Their staff participates in the forums and they speak more than one language. More than once have they offered "Hey, if the schematic is confidential just send it directly to us and we'll analyze the problem outside this forum". Recently one even offered support in Spanish, realizing that the poster might feel more comfortable there.


If you mean **A software company that helps fully-paid users
to get past company-induced problems (which they didn't sign up for
when they plunked down their cash)**, I say "Hogwash".
Markus' sad story is testament.
.
.
Fernando Peral Pérez wrote:

Some free quality software?


Investigate gEDA and KiCAD.
Each was created by engineers [to] "scratching an itch".


My experience with open source software is, to put it mildly, mixed.
I haven't tried these two yet but I am not going to switch again.


...until Cadsoft pulls its other hand from behind its back
and reveals its next even-more-draconian edict??

ISTM that in-the-know folks are getting tired of all this
Dubious Restrictions Malarkey
and are now willing to consider open source to get away from it.
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:nUmkCqo9xfcJ:www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html+Updated+2007+four.kinds.of.freedom.for.the.users.of.the.software

...and the *Eschew Brokenware* thing is moving beyond individuals:
http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/06/02/2119253&mode=nocomment&threshold=5&simpledesign=1&lowbandwidth=1
.
.

Support is also a dicey topic when it comes to open source products.


When compared to the *old* Cadsoft, I would say "Perhaps".

When compared to the *new* DRM-laden Cadsoft,
which is in the process of becoming like so many other software
companies,
I would say "It's a wash".
I find that with software of all stripes, you end up relying on
volunteers A LOT.


That will always be the case. But the only time I found a level of support like with Cadsoft was back in the old OrCad days. Got stuck with a printer driver in Europe, called the company on Oregon. Suddenly realized that it must be after hours there. Lo and behold someone picked up anyhow and she said she is just cleaning up but will relay my message, plus that I should explain it in a brief fax. Next day I had my answer, three days later a disk with new printer driver edit utilities. From what I understand those days seem to be gone.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
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