Re: Knowledge in DUP-line protocol?

On Nov 20, 5:20 am, JosephKK <joseph_barr...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Run.PDP n...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx posted to sci.electronics.design:

On 12 Nov, 18:45, JosephKK <joseph_barr...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Run.PDP n...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx posted to sci.electronics.design:

On 11 Nov, 02:20, Jamie
<jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1l...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Run.PDP wrote:
Anyone that has deeper knowledge in theDUPlineserial protocol?

As to my knowledge, High-level is 8,2 V. Low-level is 2,2V or
less Channel-Generator = Master-Generator by "inactivity" =
all bits zero sends out a continuous sync train,
StartOfTransmission pulse =8 ms of Low, followed by N (32, 64,
128) pulses at time interval 1 ms, each pulse Low for 0,3 ms,
High for 0,7 ms, to describe the 0-signal.

When 1 is transmitted, this is done by reversing the actual
pulse, Low for 0,7 s, High for 0,3 s.

When a device on the bus wants a bit to become 1, it will
short the bus (typical voltage is 0,7V during the short).
This will be noted by the MG / CG, that answers with a regular
1 sequence.

BUT:
How does the MG recognince that someone else wants this bit to
become a 1?
Is it the lowering in voltage ( from 2,2V to 0,7V), or is it
the signal remaining low (like < 4V) during the time of 0,3 -
0,5 ms, ie when the master tries to make a zero by rizing from
Low to High?

So, how long must an external device keep low to set the 1,
and when must
it start?

Best regards,
Göran I Åhling

I assume you're talking about multiplexing devices on the same
wire?
if so, all devices should be open-colllector outputs. The
master or
some one in the buss must provide the pull up..
Normally, all devices monitor the line for traffic to other
devices
along with the master. Since all devices are open-collector on
TX, the RX is tied to the same line and can monitor it self and
others.

No device should attempt to do any TX while a frame time of
sequences
are in process.

Is this what you're looking for?

--
"I'm never wrong, once i thought i was, but was mistaken"
Real Programmers Do things like
this.http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5

Well,.... To be polite.... This principal statement of
multiplexed busses is of cause correct, and valid also for
theDUP-linebus policy.

But, TheDUP-lineprotocol is allready engineered further! My
question might seem cryptic, but to a reader allready familiar
with
DUP-linelow level signaling, it is all obvious! (and my question
can not be correctely answered by someone who does not have this
low-level knowledge!). TheDUP-lineprocol is, as far as I know, a
proprietary protocol from one wendor used to distribute a number
of bits on a syncronous bus. The number of bits can be selected
for each
installation, alternatives are 32, 64 or max. 128. The bits are
always transmitted with duration time of 1 ms for each bit. After
transmission of each block of bits, headed by a 8 ms starter, the
transmission is repeated.

This render in a repetition rate, depending on the number of
channels selected, of 40, 72 or 136 ms. The first implementations
made were designed using standard C-MOS MSI circuits. In order to
keep cost reasonable while capabilities should be substantial and
robust, the scheme of a local clock at each attached device was
never implemented. Instead there is one "Channel Generator" (in
later designs this function is included within the "Master
Generator" besides several other functions) that continuously
clocks the entire bus.

The default signal sent by the CG. constitutes of a continuous
train of blocks, each one having one start/sync pulse and N
blocks of 0
(zero). A 0 is sent as bringing the bus to low voltage for 0,3
ms, followed by letting it high for 0,7 ms.
If, for some reason, one channel is to be transmitted as a 1
(one),
this is signaled as 0,7 s of low, followed by 0,3 ms of high. In
this way there always comes a pulse for each ms, the falling
flank of it (from high to low) marks the start of each new bit,
this flank can be used to count position within each block.

As you said, the bus is open-collector. Any device connected to
this bus can pull any bit low, there by setting it to a 1, or
active state. When this is done, the CG recognize this state, and
repeats it to make sure all devices on the bus get the
information (full communication between any two nodes on the net
is thus not required, the only required communication path is
between any node and the CG.)

I have measured and can see the voltages from CG being 8,2 V for
high, 2,2 V for low, and the bus goes like 0,7V when an external
node pulls low.

My explicit question is that if someone knows what mechanism the
CG uses to recognize that any other device want to set a bit to
1: Either to recognize the lowered voltage 0,7 V as opposed to
2,2V, or just the fact that the bus remainslow (lets say below 4
V?) at the time when
the CG. tries to rise (eg at the time 0,3 ms after the start of
a each bit). Also how long time the external device needs to
assert the low in order for the CG to recognize this state. As
far as I know, a handshake/acknowledge is possible within the bit
(the sender pulling low can do this "early" within the bit, and
get a confirmation that the CG is repeating this at a time
slightly before the 0,7 ms point.

I presume there is no need to explain that lots of different
formats of information can be implemented using this basic
bit-carrying network as base, for example nodes for
"transmitting" and "receiving" analogue information (the person
installing and configuring can select for each analogue channel
if it may use 12 of the bits and have a bandwidth equal to 1/2 of
the repetition rate or if it only may use one bit, but might have
a bandwidth that is only 1/12 of the one above... (1/2 of the
sampling rate, as stated by the sampling theorem).

This protocol has been around for at least 20 years by now, it is
widely used in different industrial applications here in Europe.
It was developed by the danish company "Electromatic", that was
later bought by "Carlo Gavazzi", who has continued developing it.
Nowadays, it is also sold as "smart-home" network. In Sweden and
Norway (it might also be in other countries that I don't know
about), a "ELKOMATIC bus network is also sold by the large
manufacturer of
domestic appliances (CB:s, light switches, outlets, ...) ELKO.
This network is nothing but a OEM-edDUP-line.

Practical applications of this network is in the range of up to
10 km of network length (about 6 miles) using standard
installations wire (not requiring shielding or twisting). I have
no knowledge on the leagal state of this protocol, ie if it would
be criminal to start manufacture "3:d party devices" using the
same protocol without bying the communication ASIC from Carlo
Gavazzi. In reality, using for example a small PIC-processor, it
would be a peace of cake to design a simple node.

As you might have concluded, the bus is sensitive to
short-circuits, which will render in all receivers recognizing
every bit as 1 or active. The bus also has a weakness in that you
can not know if some devices "at the far end of a branch" might
have been dis-connected unless a transmitter is connected at the
very end of each branch. This transmitter should be allocated a
unique channel where it continuously sends a 1, or even better
sends a slow oscillator signal so that some central device can
monitor connection and working transmitter.

With these low voltages, one might think the bus should be
sensitive to cross-talk interference, but practical
implementations show quite the opposite. The manufacturer has
improved their devices in regards of withstanding over-voltage
(Thunder...) over time. The entire structure has a reputation of
being slightly simple, being very easy to install (can even be
designed by the installer, an engineering consultant is not
needed!), and being utterly robust in operations.

The reason for my questions is that I'm considering playing a
little with this protocol in controlling some lights, some
outlets, some temperatures, etc in my house, but I'd like to
implement a few functions myself, and to combine this with buying
some power-switching devices ready-made (with formal approval and
all). My first round of implementation would be using the
parallel port of an old lap-top running W.95 and Borland
Pascal/Delphi.

Best regards / 73

Göran I Åhling / SM6NNC

I do not understand your difficulty. Any device on the bus can
change
any 0 to a 1. All devices on the bus compare what is on the bus to
when they are trying to transmit, and will thus know.

xmitr 1 ---___-------___-------_______---___-------___-------
xmitr 2 ---------------------------------_______---_______---
bus ---___-------___-------_______---_______---_______---

Thus xmtr 1 can see that it is being interfered with. Now where
are these request bits placed in the transmitted block?

This is true for a generic "Wired or" bus structure.

DUP-lineis much more than just two pull-upped wires and some
transistors.

Amongst other things, there is a "Bus-master" (so called master-
generator or channel-generator) that is continuously controlling the
bus by sending frames, each consisting of a start-block and N bits
of information. By default, these bits are 0, but any device can
influence on the channel-generator for any bit, so that the
transmission of a 0 is changed "on the fly" to a transmission of a
1.

My questions are addressed to anybody that has the explicit
knowledge in this bus technology, its timing spec etc.

Best regards /Göran

Then why didn't you read what i posted. I posted how to do part of
the solution that you said you were missing. I also directed you to
where to look for for the rest of the solution.

Sorry for not explicitely pointing to the problem of your answer. The
logic diagram you have attached is not correct. The bus is strictly
wired-Or, active low. (Open collector). Thus, The periods you have
indicated late in the diagram, where T1 would like to send High (the
timing pulse part for the first 30% of each bit-time), while T2 keeps
low would on a real bus give low signal, ie the correct clock-pulse on
the line is taken out by the missbehaving T2 transmitter. (This should
be obvious by my former writing). The T2 transmitter, if it wants to
make one pulse active will have NOT to interfere with the timing of
the master generator (for the next bit). - There is a window within
one bit-time when a transmitter is allowed to pull low.

The question I still would like to have knowledgeable answers to is
regarding the timing in this interaction between "Transmitter
1" (master) and transmitter 2 (ie when may a transmitter start pulling
low, when must it start pulling low (first allowed and last allowed
time), and when may it release and when must it release...

I have described this in detail in my earlier texts.

I can also figure out how to experiment with one device, but that will
still not answer to the design specifications. My hope was that some-
one out there would happen to have read the true spec's some time!

Best regards /Göran
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Knowledge in DUP-line protocol?
    ... short the bus. ... 0,3 - 0,5 ms, ie when the master tries to make a zero by ... If, for some reason, one channel is to be transmitted as a 1 ... might have been dis-connected unless a transmitter is ...
    (sci.electronics.design)
  • Re: Knowledge in DUP-line protocol?
    ... pulse, Low for 0,7 s, High for 0,3 s. ... short the bus. ... If, for some reason, one channel is to be transmitted as a 1 ... might have been dis-connected unless a transmitter is ...
    (sci.electronics.design)
  • Re: Knowledge in DUP-line protocol?
    ... StartOfTransmission pulse =8 ms of Low, followed by N (32, 64, ... short the bus. ... transmission of each block of bits, headed by a 8 ms starter, the ... If, for some reason, one channel is to be transmitted as a 1 ...
    (sci.electronics.design)
  • Re: Knowledge in DUP-line protocol?
    ... each pulse Low for 0,3 ms, High for 0,7 ms, to describe the 0-signal. ... bus. ... The DUP-line protocol is allready engineered further! ... unless a transmitter is connected at the very end of each branch. ...
    (sci.electronics.design)
  • Re: Knowledge in DUP-line protocol?
    ... pulse, Low for 0,7 s, High for 0,3 s. ... the bus. ... it is also sold as "smart-home" network. ... unless a transmitter is connected at the very end of each branch. ...
    (sci.electronics.design)