Re: history of the DDG

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 15:49:57 GMT, James Arthur
<bogusabdsqy@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 02:06:14 GMT, James Arthur
<bogusabdsqy@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 23:44:12 GMT, James Arthur wrote:
I don't think journals have any right to appoint
themselves middlemen between publicly-funded research
and the public good.

They impede progress and the free flow of information.
And they overcharge to boot.
Well, I'm not going to fight you on that score. I'd rather it's all
immediately in the public domain. Perhaps, with universities taking
action and with scientists also taking individual action, there will
eventually be a sea change. There is already some impact.

But I'll also repeat again that I've never had to pay for a single
paper; and I've asked for papers that were only announced and hadn't
even "hit the stands" yet. So while I agree with the idea of "free
flow of information" as did every scientist I've talked with about
this, I'm not sure about the "impede progress" part of your comment.
The fact is, it seems from my experience anyway, that one does not
have to pay for ANY published article. Just write the authors.

Jon
It's not just the money it's the awkward access. It becomes
impossible to quickly collect, peruse, and compare papers.

I agree it's a pain. No argument from me.

For example, it's usually faster to fetch one of my books than
to find something on the web.

Not sure how to address myself to this. In cases where I seriously
care about the details, though, I generally agree.

Once the thing is found, the 5 seconds it takes to paint
a web page makes thumbing through an online book impractical;
in person with a real book it's easy and natural.

So, it's the delay, cost, and all such impediments that
limit the free flow of information.

Well, as I said I would like it all freely available the moment it is
reviewed and ready for publication.

Not sure what all the "book stuff" is, though. We are talking about
publication (at least, I think I am) occurring _before_ they are able
to be further digested, independently confirmed (or disconfirmed),
assumptions researched by further study, etc. So your bringing up the
convenience of books leaves me unable to track your point well.

A test: It's great you can get articles free by asking, but
how many articles have you skipped because of the hassle?

I get ALL that I want, actually. This is a hobby, for gosh sake! When
I find one of them referring to others, and if they catch my interest
or seem to bear on a point (or if someone else tells me they do) then
I go ask. Since time is NOT of the essence for me in this regard,
having a life of my own to live, I can't recall a single case where I
felt 'hassled' by having to take a moment to write a short, respectful
request by email. I just am not on that kind of schedule.

And, in theory, it's illegal to disseminate them--they're
copyrighted by the journals.

Indeed. Your point?

Jon

I don't want to clutter up John's thread with this,

Oh, be my guest.


I
was just pointing out several ways in which access
delayed = access effectively denied. One example was
the difference in bandwidth between flipping through a
book, and accessing the info on the web.

If papers are a hassle to get, people are a lot less
likely to bother.


A few big companies have locked up the journal business. They get the
papers peer-reviewed for free, charge the authors "page fees" (like,
kilobucks per page), copyright the material, make sure the abstracts
are vague, and charge users to see it.

And the scientists play along, for unscientific reasons.

John

.

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