Re: Hurricane Bertha

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 12:10:16 -0500, Kris Krieger <me@xxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Jonathan Kirwan <jkirwan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
news:of1t741bd1pl2rdrild2r222f6alogre9a@xxxxxxx:

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 15:19:00 -0700, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Kris Krieger wrote:
Joerg <notthisjoergsch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
news:Jn4fk.18017$N87.14630@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx:

<snip>

A classic example where I saw trouble coming (and boy did it
come):

a. They don't eat dinner as a family.
b. Kids constantly on cell phone or in front of TV.
c. Kids tune out surroundings, don't even recognize who visits.
d. Parents don't really know how kids feel.
e. No family trips on weekends.
f. No religious beliefs.

Why is trhat a :prerequisite" for having a loving gfamily? Some of
the most miserable, hateful families I've personally known were
ultra- religious. ...

Then they are not living according to the bible. Which they should. Or
maybe they got into some cult.

May as well add another buttinsky to the pile, I suppose.

Heinlein's story, "And He Built a Crooked House" begins this way:

Americans are considered crazy anywhere in the world. They will
usually concede a basis for the accusation but point to California
as the focus of the infection. Californians stoutly maintain that
their bad reputation is derived solely from the acts of the
inhabitants of Los Angeles County. Angelenos will, when pressed,
admit the charge but explain hastily, "It's Hollywood. It's not our
fault?we didn't ask for it; Hollywood just grew." The people in
Hollywood don't care; they glory in it. If you are interested,
they will drive you up Laurel Canyon "?- where we keep the violent
cases."

Put in Heinlein's style, Christians have a faith, anywhere in the
world. If asked, they will usually concede they have some basis for
their belief and point to the Bible. The Bible is thick, though, and
if asked more closely they will confirm that Christianity derives from
the New Testament. Even the New Testament can be daunting, so when
pressed more closely still they will admit that difficulty and
suggest, "It's about Jesus and the Gospels." The Gospels can still be
a bit drawn out in places, so when really pressed to the wall
Christians will admit that it's truly about the Sermon on the Mount --
where the really important messages get delivered by Jesus.

And chapter 5, 6 and 7 of Matthew, for example, is where one finds
what it is to be Christian.

My summary of the core teachings of Jesus is this:

* Love your enemies
* If struck on one cheek, offer the other
* Give to everyone who begs
* Judge not and you won't be judged
* First remove the 'log' from your own eye
* Go out as lambs among wolves
* Carry no money, bag, or sandals.

In addition, Jesus says not to wear your faith on your shirt sleeve,
because even the hypocrites do that: "Be careful not to do your 'acts
of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will
have no reward from your Father in heaven. So when you give to the
needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the
synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the
truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to
the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is
doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who
sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

Basically, put in just three words, live like Diogenes.

Everyone else not steering a very steady course in this direction is
one of those hypocrites Jesus talked about, but not a true Christian
in my mind.

Jon


You forgot: "And don't be conceited and all full of yourself." ;)


Granted nobody is perfect, but it seems to me that too many people "follow
the letter fo the law" so to speak, yet ignore "the spirit of the law".

I think most everyone who claims to be a Christian must be willing to
admit, when pressed, that what Jesus is said to directly say to others
are the higher and more important messages, since they are essentially
from the mouth of god. And the Sermon on the Mount is where Jesus
"get's serious." They all know this much, I think. And they cannot
deny it... Yet?? It's beyond my ken how people can be so focused on
Jesus' name itself and so unable to hear and understand the messages
from him. It's a mystery.

Now, if that remains something that only affects them personally, I don't
really care - it's their choice. What bugs me is when they pull out their
little scorecards, whereupon they have the moral equivalent of a points
system for what the rules call Sin, and start trying to restrict peole's
civil rights on the basis of their points sytstem (which ironically seems
to have nothing listed for "hubris" or "conceit" or "personal pride",
unless it applies to everyone except the scorekeeper). I just think that,
instead of running around and saying this one and that one and the other
one is "going to Hell", they should shut up and look in the mirror.

Well, frankly, the way I look at it is that some people cloak their
bigotry as well as their desires to look down on others and judge them
with the bible. The bible is just a convenient scape-goat. Without
it, they'd be looking for other excuses. But the bible is perfect for
such judgmental bigots -- they can be open about it and then, when
asked to account, hide like cowards behind the bible knowing that by
wrapping themselves in it like that others will have to get past the
accusation of intolerance of their religion to get to the core of
their bigotry, which is just their own black hearts.

Anyone, religious or otherwise, with filth and muck in their nature
would gravitate to the bible as a shield, much like a hermit crab
seeks out a nice, safe shell to hide their soft spots within. It
protects them from the barbs others may thrust out when their natural
tendencies become manifest from time to time.

None of this should be taken to suggest that I imagine all religious
folks have reasons like that or that I prejudge others just because
they are religious and I'm not -- I'm very close to a Catholic x-nun
who is one of the sweetest living expressions of humanity you will
ever be able to find. I work with various religious organizations in
my volunteer work and there are some fantastic people I know from
that, as well. Joerg seems to be another such, though I don't know
him well at all. Still, gentle humility and kindness show through.

The uncomfortable fact is that one's daily actions and words reveal one's
true beliefs. Someone who goes ona nd on about being a Christian, yet then
turns around and both preaches, and practices, hatred and the maltreatment
of others, is showing what is *truely* in the heart and spirit.

I'm going to use the NJB translation for a moment, of Matthew 7. Just
for a difference. I used a protestant one earlier. I don't like
quoting biblical stuff in an electrical engineering group -- it grates
on me a lot. But this is rare enough from me (almost never happens)
and the numbers of Christians affecting the politics of this great
nation are huge and in desperate need of self-examination... I'll
grant myself some meager excuse.

Starting at 7:15: "Beware of false prophets who come to you disguised
as sheep but underneath are ravenous wolves. You will be able to tell
them by their fruits. Can people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from
thistles? In the same way, a sound tree produces good fruit but a
rotten tree bad fruit. A sound tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor a
rotten tree bear good fruit. Any tree that does not produce good fruit
is cut down and thrown on the fire. I repeat, you will be able to tell
them by their fruits. It is not anyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord,"
who will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but the person who does the will
of my Father in heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, "Lord,
Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, drive out demons in your name,
work many miracles in your name?" Then I shall tell them to their
faces: I have never known you; away from me, all evil doers!
'Therefore, everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on
them will be like a sensible man who built his house on rock."

Now, how can any Christian reading that imagine that it's not about
works and deeds and acts and, of course, ones done where the "right
hand does not know what the left is doing" and is done in secret, so
that one doesn't already receive their rewards on Earth? It's
explicitly NOT about "did we not prophesy in your name!!" It's not
about evangelizing, clearly. That's not the way. It's following,
though daily action without making a show of it, what I had mentioned
earlier:

* Love your enemies
* If struck on one cheek, offer the other
* Give to everyone who begs
* Judge not and you won't be judged
* First remove the 'log' from your own eye
* Go out as lambs among wolves
* Carry no money, bag, or sandals
* Make no show out of these acts

Yes, there *are* real Christians (just as there are true Hindus, true
Buddhists, true Jainists, and at the risk of being politicall correct :p ,
dare I say, true Muslims), who do try (and succeed) in living what they
believe - and really, I can't think of any major faith that teaches hatred
and violence; from what I've read and heard to date, although most holy
writings do include the imagery of the times in which they were put itno
writing, the intent of such imagery AFAIK was *not* to say "go out and kill
people, and hate people, and treat people horribly".

Although I spent two years studying theology, it was a long time ago
and I don't even think that was enough for me to be able to speak
comprehensively on this. But in general, I take your point. I'm
probably a little disheartened by Leviticus circa ch 20 and some of
the stories about being ordered to do terrible things to children,
etc., in various places of the old testament.

There is a problem with certain varieties of Christian thought in the
US (unique in the world, generally) which seems to accept the idea of
fancy cars, very expensive properties, etc. in their spiritual
leadership. That acceptance permits greedy people to take advantage
of all the benefits that US gov't confers upon churches and to take
advantage of gullible people, as well. If they truly understood the
message of the Sermon on the Mount, though, they wouldn't accept such
leaders... not ever... as their guides. And the system would be
self-correcting against that kind of thing. Much as Buddhism is --
which eschews connection to the material world. No teacher (don't
really have 'leaders' per se) of Buddhism worth a darn would strive to
accumulate material wealth for personal comforts and all followers
know this well. So no one like that could rise among teachers. Sadly,
too many Christians have lost this understanding of their own beliefs
and, because of that, are exposed to all manner of greedy
exploitation.

But my personal expereince has been that these True people, who are kind
and patient and otherwise good people, are rather few and far between. Too
many use religion to suit their own ends, and do not live what they profess
to believe. As above, I don't really care until tehy use their hypocrisy
to try to restrict the civil rights of, and/or otherwise harm, teh "sorts"
of people whom they personally either dislike or fear.

I have such enduring respect for the message of Jesus in the Sermon.
I'm an atheist and I don't believe that Jesus either lived at the time
many say nor that he was necessarily one person, yet I still greatly
value the message held there. And I deeply respect people who
struggle in those goals. They are beautiful ideals that have survived
across culture, time, and place and represent some of the best of what
humans can aspire towards.

They aren't actually dated to Jesus, but a confluence of Greek
influences that reached the area during the height of Hellenization of
the Hebrews around 150 BC (some 35 Hellenic cities in the area, by
that date), teachings from earlier Greek charismatics of stoic and
cynic roots going back as far as a few centuries prior. Each ideal I
mention above can be easily found in Greek thought centuries before.

Which is why I mentioned Diogenes.

Anyway, I wish there were more. It would be a worthy world.

Jon
.

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