Re: Hurricane Bertha

Kris Krieger wrote:
Joerg <notthisjoergsch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
news:RlNfk.33289$ZE5.2641@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx:

[...]

The catholic church has IMHO a serious issue with salvation. Sometimes
I attend services there and their teachings seem correct. But their actions aren't always. Such as the recent remark by the pope that only
the catholic church is the real church. Or that papal decrees are infallible. He should read about Martin Luther, what he was fighting
for and why. Or better yet, start with Jesus. Ok, they don't have indulgences anymore but some things are still weird. Such as the
refusal to extend holy communion to divorced people even if it wasn't
at all their fault. Makes me think that some passages about
forgiveness should be re-read as well.

There is no such thing as human infallibility. And the Pope is still human. But as someone raised Catholic, I just have a great many problems with a lot of the rules and tenets. I digressed from Catholicism not only because I couldn't accept the idea that God was not even as forgiving as a human parent, ...


He is loving and forgiving. If we love Him and ask forgiveness. He'll forgive but we must still live with the consequences of sin. Like the damaged liver of the alcoholic or a financial mess we got ourselves into.


... but I also couldn't accept the idea that merely going to confession, when one had no intention of even *trying* to not do the very same things one was confession, could not be an adequate road to either forgiveness, or self-betterment.


It makes no sense to confess if one does not intend to improve in the matter that was confessed about. It's even worse to then take holy communion. Same if I would keep holding a grudge against someone.


At the same time, even at a very early age, I had the conviction that, if God is, in fact, everywhere, then if one has only a rock to use as a place for prayer/worship, tehn that rock is, by the intent and sincerity within one's heart, just as sanctified as the largest, most gold-encrusted church. That also is not very "Catholic", becasu eit means that "the 'real' church" exists in whatever place a person uses to pray, worship, read, and ponder God. I was most influenced, in terms of views, by the Hermits, and the Franciscans, as opposed to those who lived among gold-encrusted marble and wore jewel-studded silk. Talk is cheap, IMO, when one lives in the lap of the most extravagant luxury.

Check out a Lutheran church. No gold an marble there ;-)

Except in for the really old ones in Europe that are converted former catholic churches, like the one my wife and I were married in.


I have found back to church about 10 years ago. Before that I
behaved like the usual "token Christian", going once in a while
because it's customary, plus Easter and Christmas. It is next to
impossible to understand the bible without a whole lot of the
specific education a seminary for pastors affords, one fragment of
that being able to go back to the original text which requires some
serious ancient language skills.
That last part is what I like about Pastor Scott, first the older
man, who sadly died, but also his wife, who's continued his work.

Also, however, it's important to remember, yet mostly not
remembered, that there is a difference between spirituality/faith,
and religion, i.e. religious dogma/orthodoxy. What I mean by that
is, a person can be deeply spiritual, yet belong to no specific
church or adhere to any specific religion, and conversely, a person
can be extremely religious in act and speech, yet not particularly
spiritual. Remember the example Jesus spoke of, where those who
wear sackcloth and ashes during their fasting-times seek, and
receive, public approval/adulation for their action, whereas the
person who simply goes on about life, with a cheerful demeanor,
seeks only to please God.

Problem is, not all persons who simply go on with life seek to
please God. But yes, one shall not show off one's faith just to
impress others or work up a "holier-than-thou" status.
But that was not what I was talking about. I was referring to what
was written about fasting - I was referring to those who still
perform the fast, out of a desire to please God, as opposed to making
a big show if it so as to gain public attention. IOW, lip service
versus actual service.

It's very close. Holier-than-thou behavior and lip service are almost the same thing. People cannot really mean it or they would not do it braggingly. Thou shalt not boast ...

Exactly! At teh same time, I do try to keep in mind that Maybe my observations are not what is actually in the person's heart - I'm just as imperfect, after all, as anyone. But again, what bothers me is when people are verbally (even physically) abusive, and unethical, and so on, yet turn around and try to tell otehrs that tehy don't have rights or they are going to hell or so on - what they do themselves is between them and God, but what they do *to me*, or to soemone who can't defend themselves, or whatever, is a very different matter.

That's where it spills over into the area of Civil Rights. IMO, that is yet another part of why the writers of the Constitution were careful to separate Church and State - they not only knew that wars of religion tended to be particularly brutal, but also, they realized that, if one group decided that its members, and *only* its members were good enough to be saved, that leads directly to what is essentially the deadly sin of Pridefulness, which sees all others as being 'unworthy" and therefore "less human", and that is the sort fo attitude that leads to murder and abusiveness an dslavery and other impingements upon a person's civil rights.

I don't really concern myself with what other poeple *believe*, but I *am* concerned with how tehy *act*, and whether their actions are likely to lead to them somehow harming those whom they personally dislike or of whom they personally disapprove. I don't think that abusiveness can ever be justified, most especially not by citing the name of Jesus, who, as far as I can tell from my readings of the Gospels, spoke *against* treating others abusively.


I've got to be honest here. Some of it you will, unfortunately, also find among Lutherans. AFAIR it's the Wisconsin Synod who refuses (or at least used to refuse) communion to us guys because we were from the "wrong" synod (Missouri).


[snipped]
Except that scholarship is often not what some so-called religious leaders either practice or impart to their followers. WHat botehrs
me is that teh people who are the most judgemental are the ones who
*don't* engage in scholarship, i.e. in reading, studying, thinking.

OK, here is a statistic I heard: 50% of Americans think that the
Bible is the literal work of God, but only 30% can name Genesis as
being the first book of the Bible. Meaning, they aren't reading it,
but instead, relying on someone else to tell them what it says and
what it means.

The problem is that, without reading AND thinking, those people have
no way of knowing if/when they're being told things that are either distorted, or even just plain wrong.

That's what Jon wrote earlier.

Yes, his post was a good one :)

Often there comes a point where you
have to ask for the data and verify it on your own. If the data isn't furnished in due course that should lead to a great deal of suspicion and even more eagerness to do own research.

Exactly!, but unfortunately, the fact remains that a great many people do not even ask for the data, do not go and read for themselves - they simply allow others to tell them what to do and what to think. It's sad because I think that a lot of them end up being led to do or say negative (or even bad) things that they therwise wouldn't have, and that harms, not the person who misled them, but the misled people themselves, which is saddening :(


And then there are the people who refuse to release their data. Hasn't really happened to me yet, we'll see.


People in Europe told me that the catholic church used to be very much against their members reading the bible. It was only to be administered in small doses via
the minister. That was plain wrong. Luckily they changed that decades
ago.

That's exactly what I was "taught" while a kid. We were told in Catechism that "we must never read the Bible ourselves, because it's complex an dconfusing, and only the Pope, through his Priests, can tell us what it really means".


.... and that is so dead wrong. Very sad. Sure it's complex but that is why I strongly believe one should leave one's rock on Sundays, go to church and listen attentively. Then ask whenever you have a question. Sometimes me and my wife couldn't figure something out during evening devotion studies and shot off a short email. Even if it wasn't anything earth-shattering the next morning we had a detailed email from our pastor with lots of information, explanation, links, book references and so on. That's how it should be.



Even apart from the question of whether one believes in the
Divinity of Jesus, He was a Rabbi and a Scholar of the Old
Testament, who spoke against manipulting or polluting the Law for
eveil and/or venal personal ends. IOW, there is a great deal He
said and did that are excellent examples for living and for
happiness. I think it's ignorant for non- Christians to claim that
is not the case, but it's even worse IMO that some people make a
lot of noise about being Christian, yet live and speak in ways that
indicate otherwise. As you said:

However, there are lots of people who claim to be believers and
then they don't live according to the bible. Oh, and none of us is
perfect. I make mistakes, too ;-)
As a correlary to what you pointed out, there are also those people
who *say* they know they are imperfect, yet still use their
religion to speak and behave in ways that indicate they believe
themselves to be somehow better/superior to others. No human can
damn another to perdition, and certanly none can tell God whom to
condemn - yet some people regularly (and often) claim tehy posess
teh authority to do so. In truth, as Jesus himself understood and
said as per Matthew 7:21, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord,
Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the
will of my Father which is in heaven." In the end, thre aren't a
whole lot of hard'n'fast rules - it's up to each person to *do
their best*, within the scope of their abilities, to establish a
personal relationship with God, a covenent if you will, and try to
live up to it - and remember that we're all in the same boat, and
all equally subject to God's compassion, mercy, and forgiveness.

We shall try to live up to it but in the end only one thing saves
use: Faith in God.
See, you say "we", which makes me think that you personally are
included in those things to which I take exception. No. THat is
incorrect.

How's that incorrect? God wants everybody on earth to be saved.

OOPS, no, I meant that, when I say I get irked by people who are hypocrites, I don't include you or other people who are not hypocrites.


But when we look deeply into ourselves we all are hypocrites. Maybe not all the time, but often. Do I always trust that God will guide me in the right direction? No. But I should.


IOW, I know that there are many people who do live, and/or at least *try* to live, in accordance with what they believe in (i.e. what Jesus said), but there are also many whose words and actions indicate that they think they can be as horrid as they want, and merely going through the motions, so to speak, will magically make it all better.

It seems to me to be very similar to the parable about the fruit trees, that you know a tree by the fruit it bears, because a bad tree doesn't yield good fruit, but a good tree does yield good fruit.


Yes, except that we can't always see the fruit especially when people stick to the rule not to boast. I remember a memorial service for a friend earlier this year. He died out of the blue, young. He never really stuck out as a "boaster", ever, so I didn't know much about his volunteering activities. We were ushers and the first inkling came when the church began to overflow. That never happened in years and this was a memorial service. Then came the eulogies. All I could say was "Wow!".


My gripe is not with Christians, it is with people who *say* they are Christians, but who behave and speak and treat others and generalyl
live in a distictly UN-Christian manner.

Yep, hypocracy. There is always some of that, in all of us, including myself.

You don't strike me as a person of hypocrisy. I think that maybe you're confusing hypocrisy, with human imperfection; there is a big difference. Yes, it *is* difficult to try to live a moral life, because we are human, thus imperfect, and we trherefore all sometimes stumble (or even fall flat on our faces!).

But hypocrisy is different, it is *talking* about morality and ethics, and most especially how *others* "should" live!, yet speaking and acting in ways that indicate one is not really striving to live *one's own* life well.


Well, yeah, but just one example: Often my wife and I see really obese people with lots of health issues who never exercise. Then we say to each other "Well, there you have it. They should start to exercise." Then I step onto the scales and ... oops. Not that I am obese but I sure could use more exercise myself. Or maybe skip that brewsky after dinner once in a while. But I don't.

Salvation cannot come through works. Which, of course, doesn't mean we can knowingly go on and sin like heck, thinking if
we just say sorry shortly before breathing our last it'll be ok.
I think works can be inmportant, but aren't sufficient unto
themselves.


I have known Christians who were great folks, who "walked the
walk", but I've also know a lot more who merely "talked the talk". I take exception to the latter, becasue thaey are the ones who
proclaim their "authority" to condemn.

Authority should come only from His word.
Ah, but many people accept proclamations of authority, and don't
check for themselves whether what they're told is what was written.

Now I have nothing (or not much) against the catholic church but there
sure are some things that the congregants should read up on their own.

That's one of the things that turned me off about Catholicism. But it isn't necessarily unique to Catholics.


Look at it this way: The church is all of us. So you can change that. For example by doing small bible studies at home with friends. The pastor might become a bit miffed if he still believes in the old crusty rules but so what?


Takes work but nowadays it's really easy to find bible passages. I use
gospelcom a lot because once you've found it that lets you expand to
the whole chapter. All the way to the end of the bible if you want to.


There are a lot of excellent sites, not only offering various translations of the Bible, but also concerning other faiths. I think it's not only interesting to learn about otehr faiths, but in today's world, I also think it's very important, becasue that is the only way one can separate those who are trying, as per their faith, to live their covenent with God, away from those who use the *words* of faith to justify violence and hatred.


In the late 90's I had one of my more embarrassing moments. Tried to get a firmware going, promptly crashed. Aha, HW damage. Had to wait for the tech to swap a PQFP chip. The SW guy was a Muslim and we got to talk about religion. Turned out he knew our bible almost inside out, from memory, and including the New Testament. That blew me away. And this was not at all a religious scholar, it was mostly his wife who pushed him to obey their religious rules.


Anyway, I appreciate your views, and it's an interesting discussion to me; I only fear that this has gotten waaaay off topic for the group :o


Yeah, I guess you are right. But it was great :-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
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