Re: An interesting view on how 'green' CFLs really are:


Kris Krieger wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
news:vq6dnfJPk7-8Xg3VnZ2dnUVZ_tHinZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxxx:


Kris Krieger wrote:

Also, from all I've read and heard, there is a US policy of not
exporting birth control to the poor in various nations, a policy
which is not based upon the would-be recipients own needs, desires,
or choice, but rather, upon the personal beliefs regarding morality
of people here.


Over the years I have seen a bunch of news stories about attempts
to
provide birth control pills in poor African nations. They provided the
pills and classes on how to use them, then ome back to find they
weren't taken properly, or the women made jewlery out of them. It's
just like drilling wells and providing modern farming tools. They tach
them how to farm, then the next year they just eat the seed corn and
let the tools rust away.

I haven't read that this happens after the proper useage of the thigns
has been explained.


I saw the issue covered on TV network news in the '70s.

One forblem with condomns BTW is cultural -
although, in some cultures, a woman's desire to have fewer children
and/or space them out better is considered to be irrelevant, and/o the
use of a condomn is seen as "unmanly".


No, it's considered unmanly by some to not have a horde of kids they
fathered, whether they can take care of them, or not. We see the same
thing in other countries of so called men that get a woman pregnant,
then look for another. They don't give a damn about the women or any of
the kids, as long as they can brag about how much of a man they are.


It's how they were brought up,
and it's nto some simple matter to get around cultural beliefs.


Isn't that what I said?


Some people don't want a better life, if it
means they have to do anything for themselves. that is why thye live
like they do. It's the same, all over the world. If those people were
in the US, they would be trailer trash. If they wanted a better life,
they would move to a town where they could find work, better food, and
a better life. You just can't help spme people.

I think that's both incredibly harsh, and at best inaccurate.


I said some, not all. You are trying to twist my meaning.


Yes,
"some" people choose to live in ways that are self-destructive. But
you're treading perilously close to implying that anyone who, for
example, lives way out in the countryside of a poor nation, who has never
had access to an education, and leads a hand-to-mouth existence, is only
that way by choice.


Yawn. you are saying that. I AM TALKING ABOUT THOSE WHO WERE OFFERED
HELP TO MOVE TO WHERE THEY COULD IMPROVE THEIR LIVES, BUT CHOSE TO
REMAIN WHERE THEY CAN'T EVEN FEED ALL OF THEIR KIDS.


Not everyone has access to the things that would
even make them aware they might have achoice, never mind to the things
that woudl allow them to actualy implement a choice to change their
situation.

It's also inflammatory, and not relevent, to claim that someone would be
"trailer trash" if they lived in the US, becasue:


Someone who refuses to work will do so where ever they live, anywhere
in the world. You stated above that cultural change is slow. Are you
saying you were wrong?


(1) unless you know specific cases, it's an unproveable accusation;
and
(2) it ignores the cultural, environmental, political, and material
realities that exist in other parts of the world - not everyone can
simply move to a town, and a great many towns/cities are worse tahn the
villages becasue of extremely high unemployment, poverty that can't even
be relieved by planting soemthign, due to there being no land, and an
overall dismal quality of life.


People improve their lives only when they WANT to.


If you want to question whether any nation has an obligation to support
people in anotehr nation, then address *that* question, but don't justify
an unwillingness to help/educate/etc.


I am the last person to deny help, but for how many generations? I am
now 100% disabled, forced to live at a below poverty level on a VA
pension that says I am not allowed to work, at all, yet I continue to
help others. I learned long ago to limit the help for people who keep
coming back, because they are too damn lazy to help themselves. If I had
all the time and money I've given away in the last 45 years, I would
have my home paid for, a newer vehicle, money in the bank, and not have
to worry till I died. I don't, because I helped, and continue to help
others.


by merely implying that people
choose to live in countries such as Burma, where the military
dictatorship takes pretty much everything away from them, or in countries
where roving armed bands randomly commit acts of robber and genocide, and
so on, and so forth.


Where did I even imply a dictatorship? You're trying to put your
words into my mouth, again.


At the same time, it's well-known that brain development suffers when a
child doesn't receive (or can't be given) adequate nutrition. When this
is combined with lack of education, and/or a damaging upbringing, it can
make "choice" *extremely* difficult.


So, that is an excuse to leave them in that condition for more
generations, with a large percentage of the children dying before
puberty?


Now, I am a big beleiver in choice,
because of my own life, but I also know that there are a lot fo
circumstances taht make chocie difficult.


You aren't the only one. I was born with health problems. I could
have applied for, and been declared disabled at 18, but I chose to start
working at 13, and worked until a few years ago when I couldn't pass an
employment physical.


And in the case of, say, the
people victimized by situations such as that in Darfur, the only
"choice" is to stay, of walk across the desert - they cannot "choose" to
not be poor.


If enough wanted to leave, provisions can be made. Look at the
people who make rafts to leave Cuba, and the South Americans who make
their way to Mexico, or the United States. It takes planning, and
persistence. People will help, if you approach them the right way.


As for education, anyone involved in education must take into account the
previous experience, education level, nutritional situation, culture, and
other aspects of the lives of the poeple being educated. One can't just
go in to some traditional village, give a short talk, and claim to have
"educated" the people - even under teh best circumstances, education is a
*process* that requires understanding, openmindedness, and creative
thinking on the part of the educator. Any doof can stand in front of a
group of well-nourished, well-reared children with above-average
intelligence, and have them parrot back pretty much whatever is
presented, regardles sof how it's persented. WHen one goes into a group
of disadvantaged children/adults, however, it's an entirely different,
and very challenging, situation.


You stated above that they can't learn because of nutrition problems.
These will not be solved in the desert. It will take several generations
of them living where food, and education are available to get even some
of them to even care. No one needed an education before, so what do
they care? They see no reason for it, and never will, as long as they
are isolated, by their on choice.


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