Re: The end is in sight

Martin Brown wrote:
James Arthur wrote:
Martin Brown wrote:
James Arthur wrote:
Bob Larter wrote:
James Arthur wrote:
Bob Larter wrote:
[...]
Universal health care demonstrably works well in many countries, & is, per capita, cheaper than the patchwork system used in the USA, while producing better outcomes on average. This is a well-documented fact, not an opinion.

That's an opinion, not a fact.

You want the facts? - No problem:

<http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/18/business/18leonhardt.html>
---
In Greece, the government and individuals combine to spend about $2,300 per capita on health care each year, and the average life expectancy is 79 years. Canada, where the hospitals are probably cleaner, spends about $3,300, and people live to about 80. Here in the United States, we spend more than $6,000, yet life expectancy is just below 78.
---
(The whole article is worth reading, BTW.)

I already addressed the life expectancy issue--that's a bogus
issue, and a bogus proxy for medical care quality.

To prove that point you'd have to show
- that genetically, medically equivalent groups with the same
health habits live longer,
- and that it's due to better medical care.

That mostly just isn't true. Most 1rst-world deaths are from
lifestyle-related causes, clogged arteries and cancer being #1
and #2. Statins help, but a country with more fat, sedentary
people eating junkfood will flat-out have more illnesses and
deaths, period.

That doesn't mean their healthcare is worse.

That depends how you look at it. If you believe that the job of a healthcare system is to fix things up when they get broken then you might have a point. I am sure the US system is great at doing heart bypass ops and replacing worn out hips and knees wrecked by morbidly obese owners.

If you believe that a healthcare system should educate the population

No, that's education, not healthcare. That's an example of one of
our socialized institutions that was once excellent, but which
is now often a disaster.

You have changed your tune. Only a week ago you were claiming that the US education system was just peachy and that anyone could get a decent education irrespective of income and not just the rich (or those able to move near the right schools). Now you are running it into the ground. Make up your mind!

I've not changed an iota. You'd said only the rich can get a good
education here. That's not true. Money isn't the determinant.

Here I've pointed out that our schools once worked a lot better,
on half the money. Ditto for healthcare, before we socialized it.

No conflict there.


to
make sensible lifestyle choices then the only possible conclusion is that their healthcare is worse. It failed to help them keep fit and healthy and as a result they die prematurely.

It's the government's job to make people eat less and stay fit?
It can't. It tries, but it can't.

But a decent healthcare system can. Look at the number of lives saved by "stop smoking campaigns". Doctor patient relationships work much better than TV adverts. Who watches the adverts anyway?

We do all of that.


We're saturated with news about saturated fat, about the benefits
of this and that, and the people simply don't do it.

Clearly a mismatch - the message is not getting through. In a sense it is the same problem as AGW. The US assumption is keep on doing all the bad things and pray for a technical fix when everything goes haywire.

Churchill summed it up brilliantly. "The Americans can always be relied upon to do the right thing - after they have tried everything else".

"Peace in our time."

Canada, at least until recently, had the world's highest
per capita intake of trans-fat. Surely they know better, right?

Depends how sedentary their lifestyle is. If they are burning all the calories they eat by working outdoors then it isn't so bad.

Not so. Trans-fat is the most potent artery-clogger. Dumping
more through the filter just clogs it faster, exercise or no.


They still have a way to go before they catch up the USA for obesity.

Regards,
Martin Brown

Dunno. Last I looked, the U.K. and Deutschland were pretty much
already there.

Cheers,
James Arthur
.

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