Re: Any Christian Electronic Designers Here?


"Jon Kirwan" <jonk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:r4b815trgacrjahchljnlsunv4b30ppevh@xxxxxxxxxx
On Wed, 20 May 2009 08:56:56 -0500, "RogerN" <regor@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
<snip<
Scientists were creating life from scratch? So that proves life can be
CREATED by intelligent design! Do you have other evidence you would
like
to submit to support creation?

You wrote that before you managed to take a different tack and find
the "10 years out" part and then accuse DfromBC of being mixed up.
Here, you were embracing the idea and then using it as an
argumentative tool for your own side. In the light of the above
abbreviated exchange plus this, it appears you'd like to have things
both ways. In other words, you aren't interested in dispassioned
analysis, but in winning an argument and getting someone else to
accept it. I don't find that a very productive attitude.

Partly I'm just having fun with DfromBC as he is also doing with Christians
with this thread. On the other hand, at the time DfromBC was telling me
that scientists were making life from scratch, I hadn't googled it, but what
scientists can create doesn't mean it can happen by nature, scientists are
reverse engineering life and making modifications. I can reverse engineer a
bolt and nut, and cut one on my metal lathe, but I have a tough time
believing that you can show me a 1/4-20 UNC bolt and nut that was a result
of nature. In other words, man does a lot of things that aren't duplicated
in nature, you get cars from making them, not mining them. After I searched
on Google, I found where scientists created new life forms, but not where
scientists created life. It would be much more impressive is scientists
could cause life without creating it, set up an enviroment and observe
abiogenesis taking place.

I'm interested to see if the right combination of chemicals becomes a living
thing. If my understanding is correct, a dead cell is chemically the same
as a live cell, what makes it alive?

<snip>

'Faith' in god, as DfromBC bluntly puts it, simply has NO evidence.
It's not "a lot" or "some." It's "none." None, at all. Zero. Nada.
This is an important issue.

<snip>>
Jon

This is where it depends on what you consider evidence. I consider the 500+
eye witnesses to Jesus resurrected as evidence. I consider the fact that
many of those eye witnesses were killed for refusing to deny what they saw.
If they were lying or making it up, why believe in it strong enough to die
for it? Paul spent most of his life in prison for being a Christian, not
exactly the extravagant lifestyle of Christian leaders today.

What Christians have today is the Holy Spirit, let us look at the scriptural
foundations of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus tells of the Holy Spirit coming in the gospel of John:
John 14

15If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16And I will pray the Father, and he
shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth
him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and
shall be in you. 18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in
my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your
remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16

7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away:
for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart,
I will send him unto you.

What? It is expedient that Jesus go away? Why? Because when he goes, he
will send the spirit of God to his followers that do what he says.

So what about this comforter that is to abide with us forever? Here's the
account of the coming of the Holy Spirit from Acts 2:

1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord
in one place. 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing
mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3And there
appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of
them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with
other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5And there were dwelling
at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6Now when
this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded,
because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7And they were
all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these
which speak Galilaeans? 8And how hear we every man in our own tongue,
wherein we were born? 9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers
in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene,
and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11Cretes and Arabians, we do
hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. 12And they were
all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?


Notice they spoke in tongues and told of the wonderful works of God to
people in their own language, they spoke languages they were not taught and
people from other nations could understand them. OK, so the spoke in
tongues when those who spoke the language was there to hear them, was that
always the case?

Acts 10:

44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which
heard the word. 45And they of the circumcision which believed were
astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also
was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46For they heard them speak with
tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47Can any man forbid water,
that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as
well as we? 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.
Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

How did Peter and they of the circumcision know the gentiles received the
Holy Ghost? (V46) But there is no mention of others being able to
understand these tongues they spoke in. It is possible ot be a believer and
yet not know about the Holy Ghost or of speaking in tongues.

Acts 19

1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed
through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2He
said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they
said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

According to many Christian beliefs, you automatically receive the holy
spirit when you believe, if this were true then Paul's question in V2 would
be invalid. The fact is you can believe and be a Christian but not receive
the Holy Spirit.

3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto
John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of
repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which
should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they
were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his
hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues,
and prophesied. 7And all the men were about twelve. 8And he went into the
synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and
persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God. 9But when divers were
hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude,
he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the
school of one Tyrannus.

So far every time someone received the Holy Ghost, they spoke in other
tongues. Out of three times it was mentioned, only the first time was there
those present to understand the tongues. The other times was how they knew
they received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 11 Peter speaking

15And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the
beginning. 16Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John
indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who
believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

OK, so what use is speaking in tongues if there are not those present to
understand what is being said?

1 Corinthians 14
2For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto
God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh
mysteries.

4He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that
prophesieth edifieth the church.

14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my
understanding is unfruitful. 15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit,
and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit,
and I will sing with the understanding also. 16Else when thou shalt bless
with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say
Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

Notice praying in tongues is called praying in the spirit, Paul says "I will
pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also"

18I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: 19Yet in the church
I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I
might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Paul is telling them that he'd rather speak five words that could be
understood than ten thousand words in unknown tongues. But right before
that Paul is thanking God that he speaks with tongues more than "ye all".
So, praying in tongues is more valuable for (v19) private (v4) edifying
self, praying to God, (v15) praying in the spirit.

So, for this very limited post, Jesus promised the Holy Spirit, the jews
received the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, believers received the
holy spirit, and gentiles received the holy spirit, each with the evidence
of speaking in tongues.

Gibberish you say? I heard a wife telling of her conflicts with her
unbelieving husband. She was praying in tongues in what she thought was
private, her husband overheard her and was wondering when she learned
German. He was in the service stationed in Germany for some years and his
wife was speaking in tongues unknown to her but her husband heard her
witnessing to him in German.

Illie Coroama, from Romania, was in Japan on a mission trip, some Japanese
received the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues, their
"new tongue" was his old tongue of Romanian. There first words were "free
free, no denomination".

So, I would conclude that there is evidence, it's just a matter of whether
you believe it or not.



RogerN




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