Re: Any Christian Electronic Designers Here?


"Jon Kirwan" <jonk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:l1m8251p4g3ihm72d9pdosp9f531au4k7s@xxxxxxxxxx
On Mon, 1 Jun 2009 17:35:51 -0500, "RogerN" <regor@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

"Jon Kirwan" <jonk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:h45825hvei95df1b8lo0o4hvae04vuhuja@xxxxxxxxxx
On Mon, 1 Jun 2009 05:40:32 -0500, "RogerN" <regor@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

<snip>

Was Dr. Tiller the mother of any of the children he killed?
<snip>

RogerN, I was being as flippant as you were. Of course, I don't
support the idea of post-birth abortion. I was just being flip.

Now you are being serious. If you want a more serious reply, my
response is that the natural mothers extended their right to him. Of
course, that would still be a bit flip, because as I just wrote I
don't support the idea of a mother's right to a post-birth abortion
and I hadn't yet addressed myself here to pre-birth abortion rights.

We can debate that, but beforehand I think you know my some of my
position on this. There is no place for religion in politics, and
there is a serious reason for the Establishment Clause, because this
amounts to throwing a monkey wrench into the machinery. There is no
way to argue with someone's internally held beliefs. They are simply
held as True-No-Matter-What and those who hold them strongly cannot be
sincerely negotiated with in order to find some compromise we can all
live with. It's entirely a "my way, or the highway" point of view --
an all-or-nothing thing. And that completely blows away politics and
leaves us killing each other -- which is something that I hope you
feel we cannot allow ourselves to move towards as a society.

I don't know much about Dr. Tiller. It seems you are quite glad he
was murdered. Which I take to imply that you are willing to either
take your views to the streets or else would consider funding those
who do -- not much different than those who support encourage and/or
support religiously motivated violence and terrorist activities
anywhere else in the world.

Supposedly, there is a process here in the US. It's through
participation and hard work via the three branches of government.
That's how we find ways to live with each other without taking to arms
in this country. If you are interested in civil war, then we don't
have much to talk about. I will just set you aside. If you are
interested in maintaining the peace, then I have a hard time
reconciling your comment and I should wait until you deal with this
before proceeding.

Abortion law varies a bit across the US, but abortion generally
speaking is legal in the US. That's the current situation. We are a
country of laws. Dr. Tiller was murdered. That is illegal. I assume
that abortions he performed we done so, legally. Since we are a
country of laws, that's what you have to live with right now. I do
not condone attitudes, let alone actions, that support vigilante
terror and murder in violation of law. A country of law -- not your
views, or mine, or that of any single person or group. To even
suggest the idea that it is okay to violate the law and murder someone
acting legally is tantamount to supporting terrorists -- there is no
difference in principle; only the faces or names change.

Now, I haven't said what I think about abortion itself, yet. And I do
have opinions, some of which may surprise you a little. But I hold
the principle of law above my own views... or yours. So let's deal
with that, first.

So you support religious terrorist activities in the US?

Jon

No, I don't support religious terrorist activities in the US or anywhere
else.

That sounds reasonable. Do you go so far as to agree that the US is a
country of laws? Or do you feel there is a higher law that takes a
precedence here and may even on occasion justify murdering people?

I do think it is worth a mention that he was only one of three that
was willing to commit such vile acts. Dr. Tiller dismembered babies,
punctured their skulls and sucked their brains out, then collapsed their
skull. Evidently he was one of the three most disgusting abortion doctors
in the USA. I can understand why this made some disgusted enough to kill
him.

I know nothing really about his situation, so I can't argue with you
about it. In any case, it doesn't matter. So far as this discussion
goes, he was obeying the law and others chose to take the ultimate in
violent action -- murder -- which isn't just against the law like a
traffic ticket might be, but is arguably the superior law of our land.
If a justification can reach the act of murder itself, no law in this
land has meaning anymore.

What I would support is that the religious change the hearts of the people
and doctors of America through good works. You must not fight evil with
evil, you must overcome evil with good.

Those good works should include, among others, vigorous activity in
providing excellent options for the chiildren of mothers otherwise
considering the idea of abortion. A wide spectrum of excellent
options does a lot, I think. It won't eliminate it, but it will
likely move things further along in a positive direction.

Too bad Dr. Tiller didn't see
enough good in people to be against their infant slaughter. To bad the
Christians didn't demonstrate enough good for Dr. Tiller to see.

Jesus certainly wouldn't have accepted the idea of murder as a
solution here. By his own actions, we know he wouldn't have condoned
it or justified it. With love and a willingness to make manifest to
others their own ugliness, he may have challenged the idea... but not
with murder and mayhem as a response. I assume you know this, too.

This was not a Christian act, murdering Dr. Tiller. No matter what
folks may imagine about him.

However, it was an act that demonstrates profoundly one of several
problems when mixing religious dogma and governance.

Jon

I agree. It reminds me of the time when Jesus and his disciples were
treated bad. The disciple wanted Jesus to call down fire from Heaven to
destroy the city. Jesus rebuked his disciple and said such action comes
from the evil one. How much better would it have been if Dr Tiller would
have had a change of heart. If Christians had showed him Jesus instead of
hatred it might have made a difference. A demonstration of Jesus' love
would have been much more convincing than death threats.

RogerN


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