Re: Schematic Entry Tools? (from: Silly Resistor Values)

On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 15:44:05 -0700, Joerg wrote:

Terry Porter wrote:
On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 16:41:52 -0700, Joerg wrote:

Bill Sloman wrote:
On Aug 16, 3:30 am, krw <k...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Ok, I'm finally fed up with OrCad Crapture, so am looking for
something that actually works. My basic needs are hierarchical
entry and Allegro back-end compatibility (this is negotiable, but it
won't be an easy sell). Cost is important, but Crapture isn't
exactly free so there is room here. Compatibility (at least import)
with Crapture would be a big bonus. Suggestions?
gEDA - it runs under Linux. IIRR you can import Orcad stuff

http://www.gpleda.org/


But messes up reference designators for multi-part devices upon
annotation, big time.

Hardly a show stopper when it is GPL'd and almost no cost ?

This problem can be fixed manually if you have the time. And as time
equals money, you will have the time, because gEDA is Free.


We had a discusion on the gEDA group about this and fixing this problem
appears to be not at all trivial. That opinion came from hardcore gEDA
developers, competent folks who most certainly know what they are
talking about.

Even if it wasn't trivial, you did say cost was important, so I assumed
after spending the time sorting out past or current projects, one would
just create new projects using gEDA and work around the current gotchas?

Moving from one application to another is sometimes very painful, I do
appreciate that.



So if Keith is doing analog stuff which I assume he does I'd
(currently) suggest not to.

I'd suggest he does, because your one anti gEDA reason is hardly
compelling to me.


Well, everyone should try for himself. I did, even loaded a VM and
Ubuntu onto the machine just to do that :-)

They are great, I run XP under Virtualbox on this Linux workstation
when I need to update my TomTom GPS maps or firmware, but don't XP
otherwise.



I've tried gEDA, running Ubuntu in a virtual machine. When mentioning
the deficiency (politely) some folks on the gEDA newsgroup flew off
the handle.

So you're saying that the gEDA folks, whilst capable of building a
stable, reliable, Orcad like schematic capture application, that's
GPL'd and Free, 'fly of the handle for no reason' ?


Sometimes I have that impression.

I'm very surprised to hear it, usually it's Windows users I find who are
unreasonable.

All I was doing is give feedback about
how analog engineers in the industry work. About that I know a thing or
two after doing this for 20+ years.

These days, we are all in this category (unfortunately). The gEda
developers aren't young people anymore.

Without feedback you can't design
good software no matter how clever you are.

Free Software developers get a *lot* of feedback as their target audience
is anyone who wants the software, versus anyone who has $5000+ to spend.

In 1998 I bought Pads (dos) for $5000 AUD, later I worked for a firm that
had purchased Protel (Windows) for $10,000 AUD. Protel was a total dog.

gEDA is the cost of a download, and it has always just clicked with me.

After this "flying off the
handle" some of the regulars on that group have sent me PMs, saying to
please not stop and that such feedback is vital. To which I have to
agree.

I agree that accurate feedback is important.



Your post, lack credibility to me as it reads like a personal attack. I
know the gEDA designers, and a friendlier, more approachable bunch, I
doubt you'll ever meet.


It isn't a personal attack. If it came over like one I apologize.

I'm cool, and you were not attacking me. I jumped in the thread because
I do know the gEDA developers and have the highest respect for them.

They have patiently responded to my inquiries over the years, and have
always been contactable, sometimes issuing a patch within hours after my
feedback.

I've never experienced this kind of personal attention with proprietary
software, ever.



That was my sign to hang it up for now and stay with Eagle.

Really?
The same Eagle that's DRM'd ?


Yes. Only people who use cracked versions generate DRM problems.

Absolutely.

However it's too bad if you have reused some part of a schematic that was
created on a non legal version. How are you to know ?



Have you checked your schematics lately, anything missing ?

How about tomorrow ?


I've used Eagle for many years. Number of problems: Zero. Not just WRT
to so-called DRM issues but in general.

Times are changing, the DRM is new, and you may be affected, the
*possibility* is now there.

I just can't see it as a good thing for the user, because they will
control your data.

If Eagle are so worried about piracy, let them supply a hardware dongle
like PADS once did, because the *software* is their IP, and I'm 100% cool
with that, but the user data sure isn't Eagles to control in my opinion.



However, I can't recommend Eagle either. While close to perfect it
lacks a very major feature: No hierarchy.

Yet gEDA which has a very capable hierarchy, you won't recommend ?


Yep. Because a program that can't handle multipart refdeses properly is
not useful for a serious analog or RF designer. No matter how good it is
in other aspects (and gEDA does have its advantages).

I won't argue with that, but gEDA isn't static, the annotator could
easily fall under the gaze of someone qualified and motivated to fix it,
and then it would cease to be a problem.

The source is available, all it needs is to be modified.

By comparison,Cadsofts hierarchical *** structure problem won't get
fixed until *Cadsoft* fix it.



Blows my mind how they could have
missed that.

It's a commercial application, you get what you pay for in that area.


They really missed the boat on that one. Even old OrCad SDT had it and
that wasn't a lot more expensive. I would have stayed with it but the
number of times that "new and improved" Windows versions have crashed on
me was the turn-off.

Yes, I agree. I loved Orcad in the DOS days, so fast and so easy to use.



So yes, I am also in the market but this time I take all the time I
want, to make this the last CAD switch.

KiCad is a tad better than gEDA, IMHO,

I have to disagree. I find gEDA as smooth as silk, with unlimited
configuration capability, and the non DRM features mean I'll be able to
exchange my parts and schematics forever.

I don't like KiCad, sure it's pretty, but I find it unweildy. This is
just a personal opinion, because I prefer gSchem, but I have used both
a lot.

but also has some issues with
multi-part devices.

It's a complex area, I guess if it was easy, they would all be perfect :)



The multi-part refdes handling in KiCad as well as the lib editor in
general are better IMHO. But like yours, this is only my personal
opinion.

You debate very fairly, it's a pleasure to discuss the subject with you.

Plus KiCad is multi-platform which is really nice.

Isn't everything 'multi-platform' when using Virtualbox ? ;-)

So is Eagle
BTW (comes in a Linux edition).

I imagine that quite a few Windows only apps will come in a Linux version
in the not too distant future as it continues to gain market share.

In the end, it's all about what the customers want, no ?





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