Re: ping Jörg: on what 'raw data' is

On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 07:22:31 -0800, Joerg <invalid@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Jon Kirwan wrote:
On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 17:41:26 -0800, Joerg <invalid@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Jon Kirwan wrote:
On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 15:44:23 -0800, Joerg <invalid@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

<snip>
Ok, we've had that topic before and we disagree on quite a few points
there.
So long as it isn't the source of the CO2 rise, I'm actually fine that
you disagree and just leaving it there. (But if it is on that matter,
I know enough now to speak with some modest authority and can walk you
through almost any detail you'd care to question -- so long as you
are, of course, willing to work for it, too.)
We do produce too much in waste gases but then the "opinion leaders"
need to do what they are called to do, lead by example. And obviously
they don't.

I don't know what to say. It's none of any particular climate
scientist's fault that Obama needs security and fancy cars and
expensive dining arrangements. Same for the other 59 prime ministers
and presidents attending there. One could wish, but as you know if
wishes were horses beggars would ride.

The fact that leaders going there are excessive says nothing about the
science. And I know you know that's true.

Someone should shadow the top scientists as well, see whether they use
modesty or not.

That article you pointed at didn't appear to do that job for you. Yet
you certainly appear to have had a gut reaction towards scientists
when they weren't specifically discussed. When I merely glanced over
the article I saw a different picture than you seem to have. We read
the same thing. But I read the literal text and didn't insert into it
other things not written there. This makes a great segue into some
recent research in psychology and neurology, which I'll comment on at
the end.

Yeah, it might not affect the science but it sure could reduce the
willingness of their constituents to pay even more in taxes. Or for our
neighborhood I might add, it has.

This is a 'fairness' response and I understand and sympathize. But
scientists aren't in control here and cannot be held responsible. This
is politics and elite power in play.

Way, way beyond their pay grade.

If I may ask, what's your comment on the story below?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/copenhagen-climate-change-confe/6736517/Copenhagen-climate-summit-1200-limos-140-private-planes-and-caviar-wedges.html

To me that's tantamount to thumbing their noses at the whole world. That
really took the cake.
I need you to point me to something specific in that article. I
didn't read the entire thing, just skimmed the lead.

Basically, what I saw is that top leaders from all over the world are
busy doing what they do best -- hauling entourages with them and
spending (wasting) lots of resources and money along the way. If
that's your problem all I can say is that I'd love for world leaders
to duke it out with each other in a small, cheap hotel room and eat
cheap crackers and cheese until they are done getting sick of each
other. But what else is new?

I may have missed what you wanted to direct me towards, though.
So you think this is ok? It makes the whole event the laughing stock of
the world. You should have been at the neighborhood party we were at
yesterday ...

It's the standard fare when you get the pinnacle of the elite from
wealthy countries and opulence from poorer countries attending some
get-together. So it tells you nothing at all about climate science
results. Instead, just something about wealth, power, and opulence.

Yeah. I'd like them to come by foot or bicycle or row boat and set an
example of the suffering they will ask others for and never actually
feel themselves. But ... what's a mother to do, Jörg? It's the world
we live in.

It leads to a "starve the beats" mentality.

As I said, scientists have no control over what world leaders spend
their money on so this is a misplaced emotion, if you blame
scientists.

Just what we have in
California right now where people are sick and tired of hearing that the
state is broke while it shells out $100k to $200k pensions to rank and
file public service folks while the people struggle to make ends meat.
They want no more new taxes. Not one nickel.

My brother lives in LA and we regularly talk about this. He sounds
about like you do. It arrives from strong, true personal stories that
carry important and hard to ignore messages of the lack of fairness in
life and perhaps also a sense of lack of power or control over ones'
own life, at times.

But again, this has nothing to do with climate science fact.

There is no way that the fact that California has political and
financial problems and disagreements has anything to do with climate
science fact or normalized basis (mode) functions as descriptions of
Maxwell field configurations, for that matter. They are completely
separable, if you have a mind that allows you to isolate your gut
reactions from the cold deduction of theory to physics.

I remember a line from Galileo (translated, obviously) written to
Sarsi in The Assayer, which went like: "In that way you will be able
to find out just how much force human authority has upon the facts of
Nature, which remains deaf and inexorable to our wishes." Physics
cares not the least whit for human wish or hope or emotion.

We, as humans, need to get a grip on that very real truth, Jörg. Yes,
there are some truly evil rats in the world and, yes, a far too small
group of elite _do_ control most of the resources in the world. Our
very system of democratic involvement is deeply flawed and, at the
best of times, seems to work barely at all for us as caring humans.
Those fundamental unfairnesses simply exist and we are justified to be
angered when anyone tries to once again apply power and control for
yet another supposed reason, which you and I know at the outset will
be abused terribly for the purposes of power and elite control. There
is NO escaping that fact. It is the simple truth of the world we live
in. But nature doesn't care, either. It knows none of this, cares
not the least bit one way or another for it. And it will do what it
does no matter how angry we get at other humans, how unfair our
situations may get, or anything else we humans often feel regarding
the lack of fairness and justice in the world.

Nature simply _is_. You fall off a cliff exactly the same whether or
not you have a 100 family members crying desperately for your safety
or none, at all. The facts of nature are deaf and inexorable to our
wishes. That's reality.

That is what we need to get a grip on, no matter how ugly and
despicable the intent of those in power will abuse and use us.

I think it will be the end of us, Jörg. Because to be honest, I agree
with you. Our fine-tuned ability to detect situations of unfairness
and injustice and our profound and almost uncontrollable reactions to
it are deeply genetic. They show up in many mammals, not just humans.
If my neighbor were to come onto my property and kill one of my
children without cause I can understand, there is no limit to which I
wouldn't go to "find justice." I know that. I feel it. And I
wouldn't care if it meant my own death achieving it.

This is part of why we have justice systems -- to offer (and even
require) us to participate in something that promises some measure of
justice without the over-the-top escallation that can result without
it.

However, I know that in the end we humans collectively will be willing
to push each other and our own very lives themselves over the brink of
death in the pursuit of finding justice against those who transgress
us. In the case of climate science, power and elite will definitely
_use_ this climate science fact to further their own ends. This is
why I earlier wrote that any carbon tax would need to be sent straight
back to you and me.. the public. Because otherwise power and elite
will simply use the ill-gotten gains for their own purposes and you
and I know it, too. And we will feel transgressed, as a result. And
that anger will affect our decision-making.

We are indeed powerless against the powerful. And they will use all
directions, whether against or for climate related laws, against you
and me in any way they can to further their own desires. Or for us,
when it serves them. The point is, it's always about what they want.
Because pieces of paper make them able to exercise power. So they do.

But none of that changes the physics.

Since I have the deepest respect for our sense of fairness and justice
and since I also know that the elite will use us against others of us
no matter which direction we head, I have very little hope in the end
that logic and rational thought will lead us towards accepting more of
the yoke that the elite will love to place around our necks and that
we will, collectively, prefer death.

And we will ultimately get it. Because of our profound sense of
injustice. It even gets parents to let their own children wear
explosive backpacks and commit suicide. That is the strength and
depth of that emotion on our actions. So I've little doubt where this
will lead us.

I can hope for rationality or that those in power will decide that it
is in _their_ interests. But that's all.

Jon

P.S. There is a possible theory about why you and I can see the same
things and read them differently. Or why some people infer things
that aren't present. For example, when a boy hands a flower
arrangement to a girl mirror neurons will yield a very low level, gut
response that takes place much faster [this has been measured and the
neurons specifically involved also located] than it is possible for
conscious analysis to take place. In some people. Not all. This
measurable response affects cognition and can actually impact
conscious impressions in unnoticed, visceral ways, where that does not
take place in others, at all. If curious, read about mirror neurons.
This theory is revolutionizing the entire field of neurology and
psychology and I think it may apply. But I'll leave it there for you
to research on your own. It's a very interesting subject on its own
right.
.

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