Re: I dropped the tv ( Sony circa December 1985)

From: LASERandDVDfan (laseranddvdfan_at_aol.com)
Date: 06/22/04 

Date: 22 Jun 2004 04:54:31 GMT

>I simply said (in error) that Sony "shadow mask" (should have been
>aperture grille) tubes are particularly susceptible to damage after
>being dropped, and this is true even for a distance of 2 feet as in
>the OP's case.

You drop just about any TV from two feet, you will damage it.

>If we look at Sam Goldwasser's repair faqs

I've read that before a long time ago.

>
>Lightly tap any trinitron tube item with your hand and you will notice
>the picture shimmer.

And I know that's because of the vertical wires.

>The same effect can not be achieved so easily
>with a non aperture grille tube item.

Maybe because a shadow mask uses an alloy *** that is finely perforated?

>This is evidence of
>suceptibility to vibration.

That means that the **wires** will move from the vibration, but what about the
support structure that holds the whole works together?

The wires themselves cannot become misaligned. The entire support structure
must be shifted to cause the wires to move out of position to cause purity
problems.

>In order for the aperture grille tube to have similar strength and
>resistance to implosion it has to be made of thicker glass than an
>equivalent shadow mask tube.

Actually, this would apply to the current generation of Trinitron tubes, which
are flat face CRTs. Also, remember that flat face shadow mask CRTs also
require additional materials to support the tube structure to prevent
implosion, since the structural benefits of a dome face tube are lost in this
case.
Anyways, previous Trinitron generations had partial reinforcement from the
cylindrical shape of the tube face, which supported the tube structure on the
horizontal axis.

>Now if two similar sized tubes,
>one of either type, are dropped through the same (assume 2 feet)
>distance, which one do you think is going to make a bigger impact when
>it stops?

And my question is "what is the point?" Remember the point I made about
dropping TV sets from two feet. I don't care if it's a Sony or a Panasonic, a
drop like that will cause damage to many parts, including the picture tube,
PERIOD.

A 32 inch Trinitron tube will weigh more than a 32 inch shadow mask tube. But,
a 32 inch shadow mask tube is still a heavy part that will be damaged from
excessive shock.

>(ed - Note the "during transportation". Have you seen similar
>instruction to correct misalignment of the shadow mask in a shadow
>mask tube following transportation?)

No. Typically, because if the shadow mask is misaligned, there is no way to
correct it short of replacing the picture tube. At least, according to your
source, there is a procedure to correct minor misalignments with Mitsubishi
tubes (and apparently, Mitsubishi tubes only) whereas a misalignment to any
degree with a shadow mask and probably even a Trinitron cannot be resolved.

>Damper Wires:
>The two faint horizontal lines that may be visible on the screen are
>actually the shadows of steelwires called Damper Wires. All
>Diamondtron U2-CRT based monitors have these wires for structural
>reasons."

They have them to dampen resonance that can cause problems with the picture
during operation.

Have you ever tried to stop a guitar string from making noise by applying
pressure to it with your finger? Same principle.

>Even the manufacturer is aware of the
>susceptibility to shock and is careful to give suitable instruction
>regarding this point during installation.

I would advise that for any TV. A drop is never a good thing on any TV set,
and not just because of the tube.

>You not only jump to conclusions but you read into my statement
>things which were not intended nor were inferred, except in your own
>mind, that is.

Whatever.

>Surely, any reasonable thinking person would read the story and
>discarded the parts which were not relevant to the OP's post about
>dropping his tv.

But you don't know what the TV would have been through in its travels from
California to North Carolina, so anything between departure and arrival could
have caused the damages to the TV.

>Because there was little
>evidence that the TV had been subjected to physical shock (by
>dropping, for example) during transport. The owner was not aware that
>it was damaged other than the set failed to switch on.

What can damage the mainboard to the point where it wouldn't switch on?

Cold solder joints? I could buy that, except that doesn't explain why the
board had to be swapped for a replacement from a parts unit.

>I simply said the
>tubes are susceptible to damage due to dropping, and this applies to
>Mitsubishi tubes as well.

And Philips, and Toshiba, and Hitachi, and RCA, and Zenith, and any other
manufacturer of video CRTs.

You are aware that there have been instances of drop damage with shadow mask
tubes that made them show Atari-esque rainbows over the entire picture?

Also, Mitsubishi made both aperture grille and shadow mask tubes. However,
their Diamondtron tubes were used only for computer monitors.

>You are again making assumptions without any evidence.

Read the Epinions article.

Why did the mainboard require replacement?

Again, the tech had to replace the board to get the TV to turn on! Before the
TV was ever loaded into the moving truck, it was working perfectly.

In what ways can the board be damaged to the degree where it became necessary
to replace it than repair it?

Answer that.

>There is no
>indication that the original board was damaged in any way.

That excerpt from the Epinions article was from the author of that article.
Sometimes, you can have a board that appears okay but have developed cracks on
the board that were enough to sever the traces. And, sometimes, these cracks
don't appear very obvious unless you know what to look for, such as a slightly
whiter discoloration of the board's normal color that travels as a fine line on
the board.

>I would
>assume that Kevin was simply trying the "swap and hope" method of
>repair without any evidence that there was anything wrong with the
>original board.

Then why would the TV set no longer turn on after it was unloaded from the
moving truck? It was working when it was loaded into the truck.

>The only evidence of physical damage to the TV at all
>was to a decorative bezel, not exactly "the casing" in my opinion

But it is part of the casing.

>See, you are wrong again. I did not say "Sony TV sets" at all.

No. You said Sony picture tubes. But, you can only find Sony picture tubes in
Sony-manufactured video equipment. You cannot find a Sony Trinitron picture
tube in an RCA, a Philips, a Hitachi, a Toshiba, or anything except on a Sony
TV or computer monitor. As for other brands of **computer monitors** that use
Sony picture tubes, those monitors are also completely OEMed by Sony, with Sony
designed and manufactured electronic parts, for those brands.

So, in essence, you are implying that Sony TV sets are more susceptible to drop
damage. This is due to the simple fact that no other make of TV set uses Sony
picture tubes other than Sony themselves.

Unless you can show me a picture of a different brand of TV set that uses a
Sony Trinitron tube legitimately with everything around it not completely
designed by Sony themselves, then it is YOU who needs to get the facts
straight.

>Nothing could be further from
>the truth. I love 'em, but they must be protected from shock and
>vibration as Sony themselves instruct.

But that's common sense advice when handling ANY television set.

>It is relevant in order to see what your real beef is. I asked you
>that question in order to establish if you have some sort of
>sensitivity to criticism of Sony products. You responded in the manner
>I expected...

And you replied in exactly the manner I expected and made clear in my previous
post.

You stabbed me in the back (which is a figure of speech). You used the pissing
contest for me to make a list of products I owned so you could turn the
argument around and make me look like some blind fan. Curious, that you would
turn to this even though you yourself are an admitted supporter of Sony
products, which should make you no better than me in your world.

The point of my rebuttal is not in defense of Sony TV sets. But, rather, to
make clear that Sony TV sets are not special in requiring careful handling.
ALL TV sets require careful handling to prevent damage for more reasons than
the picture tube, although the picture tube is most definitely a major area of
concern from mishandling. To imply otherwise allows inaccurate impressions to
be drawn by those unfamiliar with the technology, which can brew unfair biases.

>Anybody who has this amount of Sony products is obviously a Sony
>Sycophant and I suspect you are extremely sensitive to anybody making
>any statements which you perceive to be criticising a favoured
>manufacturer's products

Backstabber.

> You are correct that I was trying to
>establish this fact.

Backstabber.

>To set your mind at rest I would have all Sony
>products too if I could afford them.

Okay, you're a backstabber and a "Sony Sycophant."

> On the other hand it
>is obvious why you can't see that even Sony products might have some
>weaknesses

On the contrary. I collect electronics, and not just Sony. As for Sony, I am
selective. When I buy Sony, I tend to try and get higher end models. High end
Sony products are some of the best you can buy. But lower end Sony products
are, quite simply, some of the worst overpriced pieces of junk I have ever seen
since Bose loudspeakers. There are exceptions, but with Sony, the more you pay
for a higher end model, the much better off you will be.

One of the absolute worst receivers I've ever listened to: Sony DE series
receivers.
Some of the absolute worst CD players and tape decks I've listened to were
Sony.

Sony speakers: even Jensen speakers sounds better than Sony speakers!

If you ever buy Sony audio, only buy from their excellent ES line. Sony video
is great but Sony audio, save the Elevated Standard line, is ABSOLUTE GARBAGE!

One of the best receivers I've listened to: Sony STR-DA4ES, and I bought that
because I could get it for $300 instead of $700-$1000 at retail. But, I don't
have any other Sony audio components other than Walkmans and a Discman. The
Walkmans almost never see use as I spin CDs mostly, and my Sony Discman
collects dust as my Panasonic portable CD player has better sound quality and
durability with a longer battery life and superior defect tracking.

My Sony KV-27S66. I bought two of those for $30 as defective items. I built
one good one from the two. Although, I prefer Sony TVs because of positive
experiences with them in production uses, the price that I was able to get my
set for plus what I could do to have a working TV was what sealed the deal for
that particular set in my case.

Sony computer monitors. Same deal. I've had great experiences with Trinitron
and was presented with good deals, $5 and $25 respectively, so I snatched them
up. One required mainboard work as it had a small crack that severed one
trace. The other had no problems.

Sony VCRs. I got them when they were broken. The SVO-160 required repairs to
the capstan motor and the power supply. The SLV-575UC and the SLV-750HF also
required capstan repairs. I repaired them and I have had no troubles since.
As for Sony Beta VCRs, Sony makes better Betamax decks than Toshiba, NEC, and
Sanyo. Talk to any Betaphille, and they will say the same thing.

Sony MDR-V600 headphones. I got a set of MDR-V600 headphones that sell for
$130 MSRP for $10 at a pawnshop. I knew what they were and I snatched them up.
 Best pair of headphones I've used since the Optimus PRO-35.

Sony clock radio. Bought it because it was there and had a great deal. It was
that or buy a clock radio from a crappy no-name brand that would likely have
required replacement after a year or so.

Sony DVD player. Bought it because I got a good deal and offered the
versaility that I needed with performance I liked. It has dual video and audio
outputs, SP-DIF coaxial and TOSLink optical outputs. Boots up discs blazingly
fast and has excellent video quality, save the minor problem with chroma
upsampling.

Sony Walkmans. One was bought new, two were bought used for low prices, while
the remaining one was given to me. All sit and collect dust.

Sony Discman. Given to me. Collects dust because I didn't like the sound
quality (gritty with a fatiguing effect) compared to my Panasonic discman
(smooth, detailed, lush, and accurate which isn't bad for a portable).

Sony car stereo CD player. Given to me, and I use it because it's a MobileES
model, meaning it's built better and sounds better than regular Sony car
stereos.

Sony CD-RW drive. Needed a CD writer and got an unbeatable deal on it so I
bought it.

Sony camcorder. Pawnshop buy. Needed a cheap Hi-8 camcorder that wasn't old.
The only choice they had was the Sony CCD-TRV58. It was either that or buy an
older camcorder with caps that already failed for the same price. Plus, I also
had a good extra battery for it that came from some bozo's Sony Mavica that
accidentally got dipped in the ocean.

Sony cordless phones. One, I bought used for real cheap. The other, given to
me as it required repair. Severed connection to the handset speaker, which was
repaired by a simple resoldering.

Sony microcassette recorder. Given to me.

Sony CPS-88S boombox. Given to me, and it's unique in that it receives
shortwave in addition to FM and AM.

Sony MDP-1000 LaserDisc player. I needed an LD player cheap and that was
available. It's been relegated as a spare player by a superior Pioneer
DVL-700. Talk to any LaserDisc buff and they will tell you that Pioneer
players rock while Sony players suck. In my experience with LD players, that
assessment is pretty accurate. While the MDP-1000 wasn't a bad player, other
examples of Sony players that I've seen were uttery terrible, except for the
MDP-605 and MDP-650.

Sony videogame systems. If you are into videogaming, then you should be aware
that Sony consoles have some great games available, which is also true of their
competition.

And that pretty much explains how I got all those Sony items.

Microsoft X-Box
Magnavox CD-I 200
Magnavox VR9680AT01 VHS hi-fi VCR
Mitsubishi HS-U52 VHS hi-fi VCR
Mitsubishi CS-2021 Television/Monitor
Grundig YB-400 PE multiwave radio
JVC HR-D970U VHS editor VCR
JVC TD-V711 3 head cassette deck
Onkyo DX-C106 six disc CD changer
Technics SL-7 tangential tracking turntable
Panasonic DVD-A110 DVD player
Panasonic FZ-1 3DO
Panasonic SL-S239C portable CD player
Panasonic KX-T1450 answering machine
Motorola StarTAC trimode CDMA celphone
RCA RP-7925A portable CD player
RCA RP-7913A portable CD player
RCA SJT-200 CED videodisc player
RCA SGT-250 CED videodisc player
Hitachi VIP-2000 CED videodisc player
Pioneer LD-700 LaserDisc player
Pioneer LD-870 LaserDisc player
Pioneer DVL-700 LD/DVD player
Yamaha YST-MS201 computer speakers
Canon FB-620P scanner
Canon AE-1 PROGRAM 35mm SLR
Epson Stylus Color 670 printer
LITE-ON DVD-ROM drive
Sharp 13 inch TV/VCR combo
Akai VS-525U VHS hi-fi VCR
Fisher FVH-950 VHS hi-fi VCR
Sears 564.53410450 Beta hi-fi VCR
Sherwood CD-C1000 CD player
NEC 25 inch TV
Toshiba SD-1700 DVD player (x2)
Sega Dreamcast
Sega Saturn
Sega Genesis (x2)
Sega CD (x3)
Sega Genesis CD-X
Sega Genesis Nomad
JVC X'Eye
Atari Lynx
Super Nintendo
Nintendo64
Nintendo GameCube

>Your assurance is noted but it is sad that a lot of Japanese (and
>European) brands are moving manufacture to mainland China and
>quality/durability is suffering.

True. But that fact is hitting the European and American brands much harder
than the Japanese brands. Also, there is also the factor of engineering.
Lower end items, as well as most European and American items typically receive
attention very much like how the American automakers work: "design it until
it's just enough to work."

Plus, this is a reason why I buy only higher end Sony products. Even though a
few ES components have been built in Malaysia, they seem to still be crafted
with care and usually yield superior engineering over the conventional consumer
line. However, lower end ES products, particularly CD players and tape decks,
share many things with the regular Sony stuff, including transport designs.

> Many of them are simply overpriced and are no
>better in performance than more common brands in my opinion.

Also true.

The late Julian Hirsch made such a comment.

However, you usually still have to spend more to get more quality for audio,
even for mass-produced items. This doesn't necessarily indicate that you will
get more from the more expensive and lesser-known brands, but making a point
that the lowest end Denon receiver will beat the crap out of the lowest end
Sony receiver. This is because Denon puts more dilligence towards their craft
in terms of audio equipment than Sony's regular consumer lines, and that extra
dilligence costs extra money. - Reinhart

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