Re: Na + H2O2 (50%) -> H2?

From: Sam Goldwasser (sam_at_saul.cis.upenn.edu)
Date: 07/20/04 

Date: 20 Jul 2004 08:09:56 -0400

"G. R. L. Cowan" <gcowan@eagle.ca> writes:

> David Harper wrote:
> >
> > Dan Bloomquist <EXTRApublic20@lakeweb.com> wrote in message news:<40FC2260.9080707@lakeweb.com>...
> >
> > > You have shown examples where individuals lack an understanding of the
> > > potential applications. Hydrogen doesn't fit here.
> > >
> > > To speak of hydrogen as the wonder fuel of the future is like saying
> > > nuclear fusion would be 'the' energy source of the next decade back in
> > > the 50s.
> >
> > When did I ever say hydrogen was a "wonder fuel" and will be the fuel
> > of the 2010's? I only made the statement that saying 'hydrogen will
> > never be viable energy source due to cost' was short sighted.
> >
> > > Hydrogen as a 'fuel' has serious physical limitation. One of the biggest
> > > is that it is not an energy source.
> >
> > What?! What about fuel cells? The shuttle main engines? Sure, you
> > need oxygen too, but saying it's not a source of energy...???
> >
> > And what physical limitations are you talking about? The only one I
> > can think of is volume when it's not cryogenic.
> >
> > > And to imply that this can be
> > > overcome by 'vision' means you would have to defy nature, which is not
> > > the case in the examples you have posted above.
> > >
> > > Best, Dan.
> >
> > How would using hydrogen as a fuel "defy" nature? Afterwards, you
> > might want to inform NASA that their shuttle doesn't work.
>
> If he does, it might not be their first clue ...
>
> Interestingly, in the first few miles of each of its flights,
> when it was flying, more than half the Shuttle's power
> came from aluminum combustion. You might be interested in
> the following thought experiment:
>
>
> (1) Take a serious hydrogen car such as the recent BMW 750.
> Like every such car it has a combustion motor
> and a cryogenic liquid hydrogen tank.
> Remove most of this tank's guts -- the vacuum
> superinsulation, the heater, the 140-L inner tank.
> Keep only the 175-L outer steel shell;
> if you want, change it to aluminum.
>
> (2) Put 63 litres of aluminum pellets into it.
>
> (3) Replace -- this is a difficult step, but it's all the
> same price to think about -- the hydrogen burner motor
> with an aluminum-burning one.
>
> As proof that such motors can exist, I offer the
> space shuttle's SRBs. When the shuttle was flying,
> the first 10 miles or so of every flight was
> principally aluminum combustion-powered.
>
> (4) Run the vehicle until all the aluminum has burned.
> Pressed into small briquettes, the resulting oxide
> should fill up about 96 litres of space, so it can
> go back in the tank. In fact, it can have its own
> compartment there.
>
> (5) Note how far you drove: well over a thousand km,
> over three times as far as is possible using the
> same space for hydrogen.

Now calculate how much energy was needed to extract the aluminum
in the first place!

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Home Page: http://www.repairfaq.org/
 Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
        | Mirror Site Info: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header is ignored.
To contact me, please use the feedback form on the S.E.R FAQ Web sites.

Relevant Pages

  • Hydrogen cars (was Na + H2O2 (50%) -> H2?)
    ... hydrogen engines is really the problem with H2 storage; Cryogenic storage is ... I suppose that a real tank in a real car would boil out within a week as ... > came from aluminum combustion. ... > if you want, change it to aluminum. ...
    (sci.energy.hydrogen)
  • Hydrogen cars (was Na + H2O2 (50%) -> H2?)
    ... hydrogen engines is really the problem with H2 storage; Cryogenic storage is ... I suppose that a real tank in a real car would boil out within a week as ... > came from aluminum combustion. ... > if you want, change it to aluminum. ...
    (sci.electronics.repair)
  • Hydrogen cars (was Na + H2O2 (50%) -> H2?)
    ... hydrogen engines is really the problem with H2 storage; Cryogenic storage is ... I suppose that a real tank in a real car would boil out within a week as ... > came from aluminum combustion. ... > if you want, change it to aluminum. ...
    (sci.energy)
  • Re: Na + H2O2 (50%) -> H2?
    ... >> never be viable energy source due to cost' was short sighted. ... > came from aluminum combustion. ... > superinsulation, the heater, the 140-L inner tank. ... > if you want, change it to aluminum. ...
    (sci.energy.hydrogen)
  • Re: Na + H2O2 (50%) -> H2?
    ... >> never be viable energy source due to cost' was short sighted. ... > came from aluminum combustion. ... > superinsulation, the heater, the 140-L inner tank. ... > if you want, change it to aluminum. ...
    (sci.energy)