Re: World's First Fuel Cell-Powered Train Locomotive Slated for 2008

From: Stephen Sprunk (stephen_at_sprunk.org)
Date: 08/10/04 

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 09:59:57 -0500

"Ian St. John" <istjohn@noemail.ca> wrote in message
news:LjWRc.7915$a65.396799@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Stephen Sprunk wrote:
> > An SD90 has 4400hp. Long-distance freight trains in even lightly
> > rolling terrain may have two to six SD90s at the front (and sometimes
> > more at the back) of the consist. You think railroads want to
> > quadruple the number of engines they need?
>
> Because they want BIG trains to reduce the number of switching decisions
and
> personnel requirements.

That doesn't justify using 24 FC locos where six diesel locos will do.
History shows the RRs want the biggest locos they can get for long-haul
routes, rather than stringing together a dozen (or two) tiny locos.

> > If diesel were banned for environmental reasons, the railroads (the
> > few that wouldn't go bankrupt) would simply electrify their lines and
> > switch to 6000hp electrics. It's a lot simpler, cheaper, more proven
> > than any hydrogen-based "solution".
>
> No. They would probably first adapt to turbine electic power. The
> electificaiton of the rail is more costly.

And what fuel would they be using to spin those turbines? Why not just use
that fuel to power a more conventional ICE?

> Only because they are massive as hell and this produces both long service
> life and low rpm/power output. The precombusion chamber diesels that are
> popular in europe have much higher revving and response but wear out about
> as fast as a regular engine since the pistons and so on are of the same
> strength, not having to resist the explosion forces of the fuel.

Most long-distance freight in Europe is electric; the diesel engines they
use are mainly for switching and short-haul movements. Totally different
requirements.

And that still doesn't address the issue that US RRs expect a loco engine to
last 30+ years. If buying six locos that lasted 5 years each were more cost
effective, they'd be doing it.

> > A rebuild doesn't mean replacing the engine. A
> > current FC will require 15-30 replacements during the expected
> > lifetime of the loco, presuming they can even last a year or two in
> > the heavy industrial conditions of a railroad -- unlikely for now.
>
> And none of this has to do with the lifetimes of fuel cells. New
technology
> may change this fairly soon as the main problem is the Nafion membrane
that
> is the 'standard' for PEM fuel cells. There is one company that expects
fuel
> cell prices capital costs to reach $100/kw with it's technology.

Let us know when it arrives, can be manufactured in volume, has the
durability of an ICE, and has been proven in the field. Until then it's an
experiment.

> And if you have ever seen one go to full power you know that it matters
> hardly at all if it is idling or stopped. The smoke coming out is a signal
> of the fact that diesels produce most of their pollutants while changing
> power levels.

Modern locos I see every day do not emit visible smoke when changing from
idle to full-power operation. I wouldn't be surprised if older ones did,
but you have to compare to the current state of the art.

> > This means FC
> > locos would gain a bit of ground, but the same is true of electrics.
>
> What is your thing with electrics? Anyway, if you take the examople of the
> 'green goat' or even the 'green kid' hybids save about 50% of the fuel in
> typical intermittent operation. Not insignificant considering their thirst
> for fuel in major quantities.

Most diesel locos already are hybrids, just without the batteries needed to
store excess/regenerated power. A switcher would benefit from such, but
long-haul locos tend to maintain constant speeds for hours at a time; the
weight of the batteries would offset any gains made during (rare)
acceleration events.

S 

-- 
Stephen Sprunk      "Those people who think they know everything
CCIE #3723         are a great annoyance to those of us who do."
K5SSS                                             --Isaac Asimov

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