Re: World's First Fuel Cell-Powered Train Locomotive Slated for 2008

From: Ian St. John (istjohn_at_noemail.ca)
Date: 08/11/04 

Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:23:16 -0400

Harry Conover wrote:
> "Ian St. John" <istjohn@noemail.ca> wrote in message
> news:<AjnSc.21125$Mq1.1084022@news20.bellglobal.com>...
>> Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>>> "Ian St. John" <istjohn@noemail.ca> wrote in message
>>> news:XFfSc.21015$Mq1.990024@news20.bellglobal.com...
>>>> Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>> <snip>
>>>>> As does every existing HSR line in the world -- France, Germany,
>>>>> Spain, Japan, etc. all use overhead electric, not turbines.
>>>>
>>>> I am not pushing turbines. I have just noted that the U.S. tends to
>>>> propose
>>>> them as the only way to make a high speed rail service without the
>>>> development of the electical infrastructure.
>>>
>>> The world record for a turbine train is 378km/h; none is in service
>>> faster than 200km/h. The world record for an electric train
>>> (actually, all trains) is 515km/h, and they'll soon be raising the
>>> operating speed from 300km/h to 320km/h in France.
>>
>> And when you do not have the infrastructure to support even a 125 mph
>> turbine because your rails are too fucked up from heavy freight,
>> what do these numbers relaly mean? Not that you have the OPTION of
>> an electric train in most of the country because you do not have the
>> power grid for it. The turbine electric is chose,not because it is
>> fastest but because it is the most practical option that does not
>> involve rebulding the rail lines and the power grid.
>
> Agreed.
>
> Having worked in both heavy rail and rapid transit for 10-years (in my
> earlier career), I've observed that few people comprehend the enorous
> drawbar force that a locomotive must have available to start a train
> from a dead stop.

Even a single car ( 24 passenger weighing 7 tons ) can have a variation
from +400 kw draw to -380 kw ( if regenerative braking is used to save 40%
of power demands) See Figure 3.2 at
http://www.monorails.org/pdfs/Magnemotion.pdf While passenger trains have
lighter weight, the higher speed and acceleration compared to freight more
than compensates. Just think what the draw would be for a simple 7 car
passenger train ( Acela is 3 to 10 cars) with weights of about 65 tons per
car
http://www.bombardier.com/index.jsp?id=1_0&lang=en&file=/en/1_0/1_10/1_10_2_2.jsp%3Fmenu%3D1_1

It would probably have a erratic draw of about +/- 6 megawatts and if you
have more than one active on a track....

>
> Like you, I can't see a value for a traction engine that can pull a
> train safely at above 100-MPH, without a very state-of-the-art track
> bed that can support operations at such speeds (at least here in the
> US, including the Northeast Corrider). Due to the physics involved, I
> am of the opinion that to support very high-speed rail traffic
> requires a "captive rail system" similar to that used on roller
> coasters. To my knowledge, no such system has been implemented
> anywhere in the world.

Not sure if I agree there. That might be going a bit far. But you definitely
need a high stability roadbed, with wide curves, no level crossing, and
continuous rail, separate from the freight lines. At least, that is what it
took in Europe.

>
> Today, diesel electrics are the norm. This is largely because of
> their great performance, low-maintenance, and high-reliability --
> important considerations for rail system operators. Turbines, in spite
> of their performance potential, really scare away most rail system
> operators in the US because of high maintenance, and questionable
> reliability.

Yes. They are, however, the highest power in the smallest spaces so they get
chosen in the HSR category as the only alternative to electric overhead.
Breakdowns generally tend to be higher due to turbines liking to work at a
steady pace, which might be overcome with some storage capability. Noise is
another problem. Bombardier is bidding on the florida HSR route using a
turbine electric.
http://www.bombardier.com/index.jsp?id=1_0&lang=en&file=/en/1_0/1_10/1_10_1.jsp%3Fmenu%3D0

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