Re: World's First Fuel Cell-Powered Train Locomotive Slated for 2008

From: Hatunen (hatuunen_at_cox.net)
Date: 08/19/04 

Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:16:07 -0600

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:48:50 GMT, "daestrom"
<daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:

>
>"Ian St. John" <istjohn@noemail.ca> wrote in message
>news:vlTUc.17671$ZI1.781945@news20.bellglobal.com...
>> daestrom wrote:
>> > "Ian St. John" <istjohn@noemail.ca> wrote in message
>> > news:cCdUc.7957$ZI1.361860@news20.bellglobal.com...
>> >> daestrom wrote:
>> >>> "Ian St. John" <istjohn@noemail.ca> wrote in message
>> >>> news:bofTc.27270$a65.1160570@news20.bellglobal.com...
>> >>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Sorry. I tell it like it is. America the incompetent, and
>> >>>> anti-social.
>> >>>
>> >>> Anti-social, perhaps. Incompetent, that's a bit of an exageration
>> >>> since we 'incompetent' Americans have accomplished quite a few
>> >>> things in every decade since the 1800's. Just as European's have
>> >>> (when they weren't fighting and killing each other).
>> >>
>> >> Did I mention arrogant and blowhard? Sorry. Slipped my mind.
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> The
>> >>>> only thing they are good at these days is warfare and even there
>> >>>> only when they can run it by pushbutton.
>> >>>
>> >>> Hmmm.. Europe didn't seem to mind it when we fought it the
>> >>> 'old-fashioned' way in helping liberate a few countries over there.
>> >>
>> >> Very late and with your industries outside of the battlefield the
>> >> untouched production capacity of the U.S. helped turn the tide by
>> >> bombing from high altitude ( there is that fear of actual warfare
>> >> again) after the British had pretty much decimated the German air
>> >> supremacy. The invasion, of course, was the real effort which took
>> >> the 'fresh troops' of the U.S. finally allowed to do some real work,
>> >> (war is won by the troops 'on the ground' a truism).
>> >>
>> >> But the war had already been effectively won by England and the
>> >> Commonwealth countries, by keeping the victory from Hitler during
>> >> 1939 to 1942.
>> >
>> > True, England and the Channel held Hitler at bay in the battle of
>> > Britain. But 'effectively won' is baloney. If the invasion in Europe
>> > was delayed by 6 - 9 months, the German jet fighter, V2 rocket and
>> > their own atomic bomb research would have been the outcome. Holding
>> > the third Reich at bay did not 'effectively' win anything but some
>> > time.
>>
>> That is the point, dimwit. Winning a war is basically a series of stalling
>> tactics until you get ahead of the game. In this case by Japan kicking the
>> U.S. in the head and getting them involved. However, the outcome of the
>war
>> without the U.S. was probably a 'pyrhic victory' with both Germany and
>> Britain exhausted by the time they finish. On the other hand, they would
>> then have decades to work on developing the war materials to finish off
>the
>> U..S. the 'war' would be finished when Hitler ruled the world. And without
>> Britain stopping him for the required period of time, that would probably
>> have happened.
>>
>
>But if Britain had fallen and the US still entered the war (because of
>Japan),

The US entered the war in Europe because Gemany gratuitously
declared war on the USA.

>it might have still been a victory for the allies. As I said
>before, Britain was not the sole jumping off point for an European invasion.

There was a lot of sentiment in the US to let Europe to hang
itself. As to jumping off points besides the island of Great
Britain, where? North Africa was controlled by Gemany. The
Iberian Peninsula wasn't going to be available. Scandinavia was
out.

The real question is, what would have been the situation of the
Soviet Union had Hitler not had to maintain troops on the
Atlantic Coast and in Italy?

>But such conjecture is just that, pure conjecture. Would Germany have
>developed their submarine technology and tactics if they didn't have to try
>and block US convoys?

Most of it had already been developed in WW1. And the convoys
were in use well before the US entered the war in Europe. Had
Britain fallen the convoys would have simply stopped.

>Would they have been effective in the Mediteranian as
>they were in the Atlantic? Would we have carried out *daylight* bombing
>campaigns against Germany's V1/V2 production if London had already fallen?

Obviously not. Until the B-29 went into service we had no bombers
of sufficient range.

>Too many things to consider. Making any statement about how the outcome
>would have been different because of one event is ludicrous.

Of course. Just wanted to roil things up a bit more for those
playing the If-game. That German jet, stealth, transatlantic
bomber is pretty scarey.

    ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
    * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
    * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

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