Re: Solar-hydrogen home power system?

From: Dan Bloomquist (EXTRApublic21_at_lakeweb.com)
Date: 10/22/04 

Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:34:55 GMT

Ray Drouillard wrote:
> "Dan Bloomquist" <EXTRApublic21@lakeweb.com> wrote in message
>>
>>If it is about hydrogen from electrolyses, it is about coal.
>
> Not necessarily. It might be from nuclear energy. If we're discussing
> a small scale application, it might be from something like photovoltaics
> or even hydroelectric.

If you build a nuclear plant and don't displace coal with it, it is a
lost opportunity. In the equivalent vehicle, (HEV), hydrocarbons will
net you some 30%+ of your heating value to the wheels. Even if the
nuclear plant produced hydrogen via the sulfur iodine cycle, you only
get 10% to the wheels. So, three times the CO2 at a much greater cost.
It does not make sense.

>>
>>It doesn't do anything meaningful for U.S. hydrocarbon demand.
>
> It doesn't solve everyone's problem, but it helps solve two local
> problems -- how to get rid of the poop, and how to save money on the
> farm's energy needs.

That's fine for the farmer but what about the good of the many?

>>
>>Are you sure it is not because folks that drive 3 ton SUVs in bumper
>
> to
>
>>bumper traffic aren't willing to give them up? Considering the price
>
> of
>
>>a civic, I wouldn't blame the economics.
>
>
> The GM EV1 has a range of 50 or 60 miles, depending on how it's driven.
> I wouldn't want to drive one because I would have to worry about running
> out of juice and having no way to recharge.

You are ignoring the word 'commuter'.

>
> The hybrid vehicles show some promise. They are currently more
> expensive than regular vehicles, but the cost of fueling them is lower.
> Unfortunately, fuel is not the biggest part of the cost of owning a
> brand-new car. Very often, you are dealing with payments in the
> $400.00 - $600.00 range (monthly). Added to that is insurance that can
> cost $100.00 - $300.00 per month, depending on vehicle and driving
> record. How much you spend on gasoline depends on the distance you
> drive to work, your car's efficiency, and the amount of extra driving
> you do.

Listen to what you said. You are crunching economic numbers. Now go back
and apply that to the hydrogen economy.

>
> It comes down to the question of whether you can make up the difference
> in mileage between an expensive hybrid car and something cheaper like a
> Ford Escort.

If Civic class autos, with car pooling, were used for commuting, we
could dramatically cut our oil imports and save a lot of money to boot.

>>>
>>>But it wouldn't necessarily be for the money. We only spend eighty
>>>bucks a month on electricity right now, so paying off a system that
>>>costs more than a couple grand is going to take a few years.
>>
>>If you are using 25kwh/day, you have a surprise coming. You should
>>crunch some numbers.
>
>
> We're paying about eighty bucks a month. If we pay $5000.00 for a
> system that gives us electricity absolutely free of charge, it will take
> a little over five years for us to see a monitary benifit..

Like I said, crunch some numbers. 25kwh/day PV will run some $40,000

  -- if we don't
> finance it, if it never needs maintanance, and if we don't take
> amoritization into account.

Money has time value. You can't just poof it away because it sounds good.

>
> If we're talking about a fuel cell system, and we have to buy fuel,
> it'll take longer.

At today's cost, quite a bit longer.

>>>>
>>As I missed it last time. You need to crunch numbers. Digesters are
>
> used
>
>>in the third world. It takes something on the order of 500 feet^3 just
>>to run one cooking burner from what I've seen. An auto alone will
>
> demand
>
>>some 100 times that energy.
>
>
> That's the kind of information I need. There is a frustrating gap in
> the information that I have found. I haven't seen any data on the
> volume needed or on techniques for increasing production. What I really
> ought to do is go into the chicken/goat shelter, scoop up some of that
> stuff, put it into a milk jug with some water, and see what happens.

You need to learn to google. I'm sure I could find very good info from
.edu sites on digesters in short order.

>>
>>>If you're talking small-scale, then the conditions change a bit. To
>>>make it worthwhile, you need a use for the hydrogen (like a car or
>>>tractor), a cheap power source (geothermal, hydroelectric, magical
>>>low-cost PV panels), and expensive alternatives.
>>
>>I'm posting from SEH so don't give a lot of attention to the 'good of
>>the few'.
>
>
> heh.
>
> If enough people get off the grid some way or another, the load will be
> reduced.

There is nothing wrong with the grid other than economic politics.
People 'getting off the grid' does _not_ contribute to the wealth of
this country. It would have the opposite effect.

>
> I can't prescribe policy for the suppliers of energy. The only thing I
> can really do, in a practical sense, is to try to make my own power on a
> small scale basis. I can speculate about the larger scale, but the only
> good that does is to give me fodder for my fiction.
>
>
>>
>>Version 7 or better? Mine runs all day without a problem.
>
>
> Yah, I guess I ought to continue with the constant "Let's download a new
> version and trade in our old bugs for some new bugs" dance.

Mine runs all day without a problem.

> Ray Drouillard

Best, Dan. 

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