Re: Hydrogen trial in Perth, Western Australia, letter from project official

From: Mike (niche_at_iinet.net.au)
Date: 11/13/04 

Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:58:06 +0800

Thomas Lee Elifritz wrote:

> November 12, 2004
>
> > ie. Methane to hydrogen ends up throwing away some energy which could
> > be better used in transport.
>
> Which still produces carbon dioxide, global warming and climate change.

Sure but isnt the direct use of methane going to produce less pollution than
going to the expense and loss of energy of producing hydrogen ?

> That is enough for me to plonk you right there.

In the absence of a really clean source of hydrogen its appropriate
to minimise existing pollution. However, even if there were a clean
source of hydrogen and its unburdened then the safety aspects
make it problematic but not insurmountable.

If it were posible to say come up with a "cannister" of some carbon
neutral energetic brew which when activated released hydrogen and it]
were burnt in an ice.

Of course one could retort petrol is the best brew but we are
looking for an alternative which could say keep the carbon in
the cannister and only release a fuel which doesnt release a
greenhouse gas and doesnt cause more pollution for the
recycling of the cannister.

> > > > Most of the mentioned hydrogen tonnage
> > > > is used to make gasoline, but not used directly. Using methane or coal or
> > > > other fossil fuel to make hydrogen negates the main reason for hydrogen,
> > > > namely no CO2 emissions.
> > >
> > > Do you always contradict yourself?
> >
> > It doesnt look like a contradiction, it looks like a contextual issue.
>
> It looks like denialism by avoiding the contextual issue, which is, carbon dioxide,
> noxious and poisonous exhaust gas products, toxic waste, noise, ecological
> degradation and oil wars, among other things..

I'm not avoiding it. I accept we should move away from a fuel which creates
an excess green gas condition but hydrogen is easily demonstrated not to
achieve that.

What else is there ?

> > Many of those I have spoken to at a recent show re hydrogen were under the
> > impression hydrogen has no pollution attached to it, but unfortunately all
> > known ways of making hydrogen produce more pollution than the same
> > amount of petrol would bre required for the end use.
>
> Wrong. You are nothing but a parrot.

Making a personal attack reflects on your level of maturity.

What have you got that is useful to illustrate where you think Don or any
other thermodynamic engineer is wrong ?

> > > Oh great, another Don Lancaster groupie.
> >
> > Isnt it just basic chemistry, everyone who can read a chemistry text and
> > understands energy of a reaction can see that.
>
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=hyperphysics+electrolysis
>
> These reactions care nought where the energy comes from.

The source of the energy can be more or less polluting, the aim is to
derive a fuel source or methodology which is the least producing of
pollutants overall - not one which simply shifts the problem.

If we had the rise in greenhouse emissions under control then petrol
or another carbon based fuel could be useful if and only if the overall
thermodynamics resulted in a carbon neutral cycle over a appropriate
period.

Rgds

Mike

>
>
> <plonk>
>
> Thomas Lee Elifritz
> http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net

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