Re: Does anyone know what's REAL when it comes to DIY Hydrogen systems?

From: Fred Kasner (fkasner_at_enteract.com)
Date: 12/22/04 

Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 23:57:23 GMT

Don W. wrote:
> "Wirelessguy" <wirelessguy@optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:1103665716.418682.162070@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
>>Excellent replies, all of them.
>>
>>I'm upset that it's taken me this long to find a forum where people
>>know what they are talking about, but I'm also happy that I found it
>>now and not another 6 moths from now.
>>
>>...Taking it further...
>>
>>I've Read through about as much of Don's PDF's as I could and found the
>>information very useful.
>>
>>One thing I'm not certain that I agree with though is the whole
>>discussion about the Energy Sink being an issue. Basically, everything
>>I can think of is an energy sink. My general rule is to compare it's
>>'sink' to that of other energy devices.
>
>
> Good plan -- as long as you're very careful not to compare apples to
> oranges!
>
>
>>Having said this, The DOE Module's I've read through give me this:
>>(
>
> http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/tech_validation/pdfs/fcm03r0.pdf
>
>>)
>>Liuid Gas engine at: 100% equiv. is
>>Gaseous Hydrogen 85%
>>Liq Hydrogen 115%
>>Gas High Pressure Hydrogen 120%
>>
>
>
> I'm not sure what those percentages are supposed to represent.
>
>
>>If I'm reading this correctly then at worst case a hydrogen powered car
>>would give you 12 mpg today rather than the 15 you'd get with Gas. Is
>>that right?
>
>
> Not a very meaningful number because the real issue is not miles and
> gallons -- the issue is energy. Crude oil comes from the ground, but there
> are no hydrogen mines. Large scale reformation of methane to hydrogen
> undergoes about a 30% energy loss. Using the methane directly to power the
> vehicle bypasses that 30% loss. It would be easeir to discuss the
> comparison of gasoline and hydrogen if you would explain why you're
> comparing the two. Cost? Environmental concerns? Safety? Convenience?
> Range?
>
>
>>(For the sake of the email I won't get into various losses or
>>regulations/legistation issues).
>>
>>Though I don't believe in Brown's gas I still think that there must be
>>some sort of way to store Hydrogen (I'm still thinking water since the
>>hydrogen molecules are stored more compactly than in gas form alone)
>>and simply use it on-demand within a vehicle.
>
>
> Water is already-burned-hydrogen. To 'unburn' it requires energy. The
> best, most convenient and compact way we know store that energy onboard
> automobiles is petroleum fuels. Burning petroleum fuels directly is a LOT
> more efficient than using the energy in the fuels to 'unburn' water!
>
>
>>Don writes about all of the efficiencies we gain yearly with the
>>current gas powered vehilces. I'm surprised that we can't figure out a
>>way get enough energy, I think it's under 2 volts, (even if it is a
>>sink) to electrolyse water and feed the hydrogen into an engine for
>>combustion.
>>
>
>
> Voltage is not a measure of energy. Electrolysis is grossly inefficient,
> so however you carry the energy in the vehicle you will have a much smaller
> quantity of that energy to use after electrolysis. There is no easy way to
> break the laws of thermodynamics without getting caught.
>
>
>>I'm looking forward to learning more.
>>Thanks.
>>
>
>
>

One small quibble. Voltage is an energy term. Electrical energy per unit
charge. A volt is a joule per coulomb. However this makes it a kind of
energy density term. But one should not mislead with appearance of
claiming that voltage is not related to energy.
FK

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