Re: 180% efficient electrolysis?

From: Bill Ward (bwardREMOVE_at_ix.netcom.com)
Date: 01/05/05 

Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 06:19:28 GMT

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 22:41:15 -0700, Don Lancaster
<don@tinaja.com> wrote:

>Peter Lowrie wrote:
>>
>> Don Lancaster wrote:
>>
>> > Bill Ward wrote:
>> Bill's question adequately answered by Don. The Don then shoots himself in
>> the foot with comments on outmoded beliefs regarding electrolysis.
>>
>> >> On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 03:21:42 +1300, Peter Lowrie
>> >> <peterlowrie@consultant.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >Now Bill. As you can see from the thread ppl have been experimenting
>> with
>> >> >fuel enrichment devices, the one in question adds oxygen and hydrogen to
>> >> >the air intake. The rest is obvious.
>> >>
>> >> Not to me. How does that improve gas mileage?
>> >>
>> >> For that matter, which of these "fuel enrichment devices" do
>> >> you think actually work, and why?
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >>
>> >> Bill Ward
>> >
>> > There are SAE and IJHE papers that show that a low level hydrogen
>> > injection (5% typically) into a conventional ICE can improve gas mileage
>> > and reduce pollution.
>> >
>> > Whether this can be done on a net energy gain basis and compatible with
>> > emerging engine technologies has yet to be shown.
>> >
>> > To me, it seems to offer possible eventual advantages through exhaust
>> > driven reformation. On-board electrolysis, of course, would be an
>> > outright joke. Even before amortization.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>
> There are several SAE and IJHE papers that suggest that a
> modest (perhaps 5%) hydrogen injection into a conventional
> gas or diesel engine significantly improves both mileage and
> emissions. But it has yet to be shown whether any net gain
> can economically result. And whether such injection can be
> made compatible with ongoing vehicle improvements.
>
> The most likely route would be fuel reformation driven by heat
> from the exhaust stream. I've had several people wanting to
> use electrolysis instead contact me who clearly have not even
> begun to look at the fundamental numbers. Which appear
> really, really grim to me.
>
> Fer instance, an 18 wheeler might want to do a 5% injection
>into
> a 300 Horsepower engine, or 15 net horsepower of hydrogen.
> Water is one ninth hydrogen. At five percent injection, the
>water
> tank alone would have to be 9/20ths the fuel tank size and
>thus not
> a minor consideration.
>
> 15 horsepower of hydrogen would be 11,190 watts. Or, over an
> hour, 11,190 watthours. Electrolysized water produces 3 watt
>hours
> per liter, so 3730 liters per hour or 62 liters of hydrogen
>per minute
> would be required. With the finest of platinized platinum
>electrodes,
> electrolysis could possibly approach 50% efficiency before
>amortization.
> Cheaper electrodes (such as an abysmally poor choice of
>stainless
> steel) would likely leave efficiency down in the 25% range.
>
> And most auto alternators aren't all that efficient, so
>something like
> 60 horsepower at the belt might be needed. A trucker might not
>be
> totally overjoyed at taking a one-fifth hit on fuel costs and
>available
> power. Further, at 12 volts, 60 horsepower would require a
>3730
> amp alternator, considerably larger than anything commercilly
> available for the automotive market. Worse yet, a typical
>V-belt is
> rated around five horsepower, so TWELVE belts might be
> needed between the engine and the alternator!
>
> More in our Energy Fundamentals and Electrolysis Fundamentals
> tutorials.
>--
>Many thanks,
>
>Don Lancaster

According to that (plausible to me) estimate, it looks to me
like you would need a 15% increase in combustion efficiency
just to break even. Has that much ever been reported?

I was involved in the early '90s in playing around with
Hythane (~5% H2 in CH4) in spark ignited engines on a
chassis dyno. We saw significant emissions reductions, but
nothing of that magnitude for fuel economy.

That's why I said it wasn't obvious to me that injecting
electrolytic (candlestick) hydrogen would improve gas
mileage.

It still isn't.

Regards,

Bill Ward

 

Relevant Pages

  • Re: 180% efficient electrolysis?
    ... > the foot with comments on outmoded beliefs regarding electrolysis. ... Even before amortization. ...
    (sci.energy.hydrogen)
  • Re: 180% efficient electrolysis?
    ... the foot with comments on outmoded beliefs regarding electrolysis. ... How does that improve gas mileage? ...
    (sci.energy.hydrogen)
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