Re: Downside to Methanol

On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 20:54:02 -0700, "AKA Gray Asphalt"
<goodidea1950@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

It's interesting that you gave up on the interview. I felt the same way and
I think it was because Ira, the interviewer didn't give him a fair hearing
... and Olah started to give what seemed like a history of energy which
undoubtedly turned people off.

Here are some of the things that interested me:

Methanol:
can be made without crops, ie by chemical process
methanol can be used in the production of plastics instead of petroleum
methanol can be produced now at less than $1/gallon
methanol can be mixed with gasoline in any proportion (this is chemical, not
about engine mechanics)
methanol can be easily converted to most, if not allmost all, others ...
hydrogen, ethanol, what else?
methanol can be produced from a process that uses up co2
I wonder if this is an alternative to removing the co2 and storing in
underground
methanol can be distributed from existing gas pumps (which is not true of
hydrogen)

Most of this is true of ethanol and butanol as well. Since all three
alcohols would be roughly comparable in a flex fuel vehicle, I'm still
not clear on the supposed advantages of methanol, which has the lowest
energy density of the three and has some other liabilities as well,
e.g., toxicity, formaldehyde pollution, and contamination of
groundwater supplies if the fuel tank leaks (already a problem with
MTBE, but not a problem with ethanol, unless you belong to the Women's
Temperance Union).

I get the idea that ethanol would require a great amount of agriculture to
produce enough
fuel to be significant. I'm not sure about this. (More crops means less co2,
though)

If you look back a week or two you'll see some references here to the
crop potential. The estimates I've seen for ethanol -- should be
similar in the case of methanol -- say that with current technology
we can produce enough crops to replace between 30% and 60% of our
vehicular gasoline consumption. Which is probably enough to replace
gasoline if you increase efficiency a bit, by for example using
plug-in hybrids, which reduce average fuel consumption by something
like 60%.

Hydrogen can not be mined. It takes energy to extract it.

It might be more accurate to say that hydrogen can be mined, but you
have to get rid of the carbon that comes up with it. And this is true
of any fossil derived fuel: you have to deal with the carbon that
nature salted away millions of years ago.

From my perspective -- and it's definitely a personal perspective,
because different people have different priorities and no one can say
for sure what politics and technology will bring -- it would make
sense to jump start the production of cellulosic ethanol, which can be
made now for about $1.30 per gallon -- a bit costlier than gasoline,
but not, I think, costlier when you take into account subsidies, and
indirect costs such as the cost of patrolling the Middle East and
dealing with oil-money-financed terrorism. Mandate that all new
vehicles be flex fuel vehicles -- that adds only $200 or so to the
cost of a car -- and that gas stations dispense the ethanol as it
becomes available. Then set reasonable efficiency requirements for
cars to ensure that consumption doesn't exceed outstrip our
agricultural resources. Net result -- energy independence, lower
pollution, and a significant decrease in our contribution to global
warming, at little net cost.

From what I've been reading, butanol may be an even better choice.

--
Josh

[Truly] I say to you, [...] angel [...] power will be able to see that [...]
these to whom [...] holy generations [...]. After Jesus said this, he departed.

- The Gospel of Judas
.

Relevant Pages

  • Competing Technologies Push to Commercialize Renewable Petroleum
    ... expansion of ethanol use, or, for that matter, electric cars. ... The holy grail is a renewable fuel that no one can tell is renewable. ... Randy Cortright has worked to convert a range of sugar molecules into ... cost more until it's cheaper to break down these materials into simple ...
    (sci.logic)
  • Re: Imagine: 500 Miles Per Gallon
    ... ethanol or methanol, and you get between 400 and 500 miles per gallon ... methanol are much cheaper than gasoline, so fuel costs would drop ... It will take a huge increase in fuel costs for the average Joe to make ...
    (sci.electronics.design)
  • Re: Downside to Methanol
    ... can be made without crops, ... methanol can be used in the production of plastics instead of petroleum ... Most of this is true of ethanol and butanol as well. ... alcohols would be roughly comparable in a flex fuel vehicle, ...
    (sci.energy.hydrogen)
  • Re: Denatured Alcohol for fuel?
    ... one reason they want to use methanol in race cars is in case there ... with the right fuel to air ratio gasoline makes an acceptable motor fuel. ...  This has me wondering if the ethanol ...
    (rec.models.rc.air)
  • Re: battery pulsing gizmo
    ... Still, fuel cells are rather less politically-charged, potentially ... ethanol. ... you can eat corn or feed it to cattle or something.... ... whats wrong with putting Methanol in gas? ...
    (rec.motorcycles.tech)