Re: Lying, stealing and wierd science

"Josh Hill" <usereplyto@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:ll1fn2lnl2jeh35pr8hjfoicfl2vpdc996@xxxxxxxxxx
On Tue, 05 Dec 2006 00:27:28 GMT, "Jesse Spencer"
<jess225107<DELETE>@yahoo.com> wrote:

Don W wrote:

The stealing part is about government taking our money and
spending it on dead-end fuel cell projects. The lying part is
where the people to whom our money was given report back
to the people who gave it to them.

http://dodfuelcell.cecer.army.mil/library_items/Strategy_Report.pdf
Table 1 in this reference shows the DoD reported to Congress
that the 40% to 50% efficiency (based on HHV) is characteristic
of PEM fuel cells. All their (fairly extensive) testing indicates
typical PEM FC efficiency is less than half that figure and I've
seen no indication that any DoD test anywhere of a PEM FC
has ever achieved 40% efficiency. Maybe if the lies are told
and retold enough times and enough people believe them, the
physics will change?

Don W.

From Wikipedia:
It is also important to take losses due to production, transportation,
and storage into account. Fuel cell vehicles running on compressed
hydrogen may have a power-plant-to-wheel efficiency of 22% if the
hydrogen is stored as high-pressure gas, and 17% if it is stored as
liquid hydrogen.
END

Now I wonder what the refinery to wheel efficiency of gasoline is.

Good question. Most of these comparisons seem to involve apples and
oranges.

--
Josh

Not really. There are oil wells where we can take fuel from the ground and
that fuel contains far more potential energy than the energy required to
take it out of the ground. That makes crude oil and its derivatives an
energy source. There are no hydrogen wells. Hydrogen must be 'unburned'
before it can be used as fuel and in the process of unburning it and storing
it much of the invested energy is lost, so hydrogen is not an energy source.
Making hydrogen from crude oil is also a wasteful and inefficient use of
energy. About 30% to 40% of the energy in hydrocarbons is lost in the
process of reforming it to hydrogen and that's only where the waste begins.

If you want apple to apples, compare the use of methane in an ICE powered
vehicle to reforming the methane to hydrogen, then burning the hydrogen in
an ICE or using it in a fuel cell to power electric motors. In terms of
miles per kilogram of methane, the ICE will win hands down.

Don't even talk about nuclear or wind or solar until all current (NPI)
electrical demands are met with 'alternative' electricity because replacing
'dirty' electricity kilowatt for kilowatt with clean electricity will do the
environment a lot more good than throwing away the bulk of those energy
resources on inefficient processes. Whether or not you care to admit it,
energy from alternative resources is more expensive than energy from
conventional resources. That's why alternative energy resources are
'alternative'. If it doesn't make sense to waste conventional energy, then
it certainly doesn't make sense to waste alternative energy.

Cry about "apples and oranges" all you want -- you just can't make a
reasonable case for hydrogen in the energy mix. That's why there isn't any
hydrogen in the energy mix.

Don W.


.

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