Re: Turning wind power into hydrogen

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 21:33:08 -0700, Don Lancaster <don@xxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Josh Hill wrote:
On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 20:37:59 -0700, Don Lancaster <don@xxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:


Josh Hill wrote:

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 16:34:05 -0700, Don Lancaster <don@xxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:



Josh Hill wrote:


On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 19:02:10 +0800, "Pluto" <pluto7@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:




"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:4590F5FD.36686367@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx



Josh Hill wrote:




Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:



Pluto wrote:




Turning wind power into hydrogen

That's about the most wasteful thing you could do with it.

Why? Is there a shortage of wind?

There's often a shortage of good places to install wind turbines and using the
power to make hydrogen electrolytically typically wastes 75-80% of the energy
generated.

There isn't going to be any 'hydrogen economy' any more than perpetual motion
machines are going to be invented.

Graham


Maybe we got to see it from another point of view.
When there is a need for Hydrogen, why not use wind power
to make it, instead of using fossil.

Because making it from wind power is outrageously more expensive.
And always will be, due to the staggering loss of exergy during
electrolysis.


Agree with your first point -- as things now stand. Not your second.
The cost of wind power continues to drop, as does the cost of
electrolysis, and AFAIK we're about to hit fundamental or practical
limits, so there's no reason of which I'm aware to think that hydrogen
from wind won't become competitive with current sources at some time
in the future, at least when indirect expenditures are taken into
account. And the world isn't making much by way of new supplies of
natural gas, while large-scale carbon sequestration, necessary to the
continued large-scale use of natural gas or coal as feedstocks, may
not prove practical.


The cost of electrolysis will NEVER drop to the point where its
staggering loss of exergy justifies the use of electricity to generate
hydrogen.

As ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEED by thermodynamic fundamentals.

Absolutely FREE electrolysis is not nearly good enough.


It is not guaranteed by thermodynamic fundamentals or anything else,
because the sensible comparison is not with the grid power used to
produce the hydrogen, but with the gasoline that fuels your car. And
gasoline is an expensive fuel.


If gasoline was "expensive", why would anyone ever use it?

Because for the most part you can't, or wouldn't want to, use cheaper
fuels in a car: diesel oil has historically been smelly and clunky to
burn, natural gas has volumetric problems, stored grid power requires
batteries that haven't been developed yet, coal requires a shovel,
wood requires an axe, and a containment vessel won't fit in your
trunk.

Not to mention history -- gas won out over batteries on the basis of
performance and alcohol on the basis of price, but that was back when
oil was a plentiful commodity and neither global warming nor other
forms of auto-generated pollution were considered problems.

--
Josh

[Truly] I say to you, [...] angel [...] power will be able to see that [...]
these to whom [...] holy generations [...]. After Jesus said this, he departed.

- The Gospel of Judas
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: NBC: Stop the Energy Insanity; by Mortimer Zuckerman
    ... The problem with Pickens' premise is that wind power (he claims one mill is ... worth 1,200 barrels of oil) won't power REAL automobiles. ... The United States is the Saudi Arabia of wind power. ... Natural gas and bio-fuels are the only domestic energy sources used ...
    (rec.music.artists.springsteen)
  • Re: NBC: Stop the Energy Insanity; by Mortimer Zuckerman
    ... The problem with Pickens' premise is that wind power (he claims one mill is ... worth 1,200 barrels of oil) won't power REAL automobiles. ... The United States is the Saudi Arabia of wind power. ... Natural gas and bio-fuels are the only domestic energy sources used ...
    (rec.music.artists.springsteen)
  • Re: Turning wind power into hydrogen
    ... Is there a shortage of wind? ... power to make it, instead of using fossil. ... the cost of electrolysis, and AFAIK we're about to hit ... natural gas, while large-scale carbon sequestration, ...
    (sci.energy.hydrogen)
  • Re: Turning wind power into hydrogen
    ... There's often a shortage of good places to install wind turbines and using the ... Because making it from wind power is outrageously more expensive. ... electrolysis, and AFAIK we're about to hit fundamental or practical ...
    (sci.energy.hydrogen)
  • Re: Turning wind power into hydrogen
    ... There's often a shortage of good places to install wind turbines and using the ... Because making it from wind power is outrageously more expensive. ... electrolysis, and AFAIK we're about to hit fundamental or practical ...
    (sci.energy.hydrogen)