Re: How many hydrogen cars on the road in the US today?

On May 25, 7:53 am, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Williamknowsbest wrote:
Now, where to get the H2?

845 grams of hydrogen can be made by the shift reaction

C + 2 H2O ---> CO2 + 2 H2

Where 845 grams requires the production of 9.2 kg of CO2

845 grams of hydrogen can be made by the Sabatier reaction

CH4 + 2 H2O --> CO2 + 4 H2

Where 845 grams requires the production of 4.6 kg of CO2

Yes, they both produce oodles of CO2. I know that.

845 grams of hydrogen can be made by electrolysis using 42 kWh of
electricity

Why 845 grams and where do you get the 42kWh from ?

haha.. where do your pronouncements come from? I haven't seen a
single number to back up your outrageously dismissive and wrong
statements. lol.

Nevertheless, its clear what I'm doing. Plainly the heating value of
845 grams of hydrogen gas is equivalent to one gallon of gasoline.

The heating value of 1 kg of hydrogen is 142 MJ.
The heating value of 1 gallon of gasoline of typical octane rating is
120 MJ.
(this can vary - based on grade and so forth - 120 MJ is typical)

120/142 = 0.845

That number multiplied by 1000 grams per kg is 845 grams.

Easy and obvious.


- release of CO2 depends on how the electricity is made.

Sure.

Electricity from sunlight and wind power has ZERO CO2 foot print,

Not zero, there's the carbon use from manufacturing and maintenance.

Sure, but those second order sources are equal across the entire
industrial landscape. You said hydrogen was CONSIDERABLY MORE - I
showed to the FIRST ORDER - that is the primary source - hydrogen is
CONSIDERABLY LESS - since both gasoline use and hydrogen use requires
an industrial infrastructure, they're both pretty damn much the same
in their second order effects.

Further,if you want to look at second order releases and reducing
those look at smelting metals like iron and silicon with hydrogen
instead of carbon,from metallurgical coal and using hydrogen fueled
generators to make electricity to reduce bauxite - this is a sound way
to reduce secondary sources of carbon that you are alluding to. This
is not possible to do with fossil fuels, it is possible to do in a
hydrogen energy economy.

so hydrogen made this way has ZERO carbon footprint.

I know. The 'green' electricity to make it is however quite rare and somewhat expensive.

Using the technologies and approaches developed by the research
divisions of the major oil companies. YES. Using more appropriate
technologies the paradigm is changed. You haven't grasped the
paradigm shift that my technology makes possible.

The
cheapest wind-derived electricity is about twice the price of coal/nuclear IIRC.

Correct, but we're not talking conventional alternative energy
here,we're talking about MY patented innovations here.

The price of PV electricity is simply insanely expensive.

Conventoinally sourced PV is $0.30 per kWh - way too expensive. I
agree wholeheartedly. My new patented CPV technology using liquid
superconcentrators reduce that cost to less than 1/3 cent per kWh -
the lowest cost source of energy on the planet. At these prices
balance of system costs dominate. A clear analysis of those costs
give us an order of battle to compete successfully against major oil
companies. Actually that's an overstatement. We will actually augment
the the oil companies and boost their value as extracted sources of
oil are depleted to a greater and greater degree. That is,
stockholder value isn't worth much in a depressed economy, whereas
stockholder value is increased in a growing economy. So, these two
technologies while technically in competition actually have
synergistic effect on one another during the cross-over.

To make hydrogen from these would both be insanely expensive and resource consuming to litle
good effect.

What you say is absolutely true of conventional PV. Not true of my
patented concentrated PV that operates at 1,000x solar intensity using
liquid superconcentrators - that produce energy at 1% the cost of
conventional PV -

Since the sun is an intermittent source of energy the highest best use
of low-cost PV like mine is to produce a synfuel - I call them sun-
fuels - when the sun shines. The easiest to make is hydrogen through
electrolytic reduction of water using my low cost solar energy.

Resources that could be put to good use elsewhere in more promising projects.

I'm spending $2.8 billion to build 100 square miles of my ultra-low
cost solar panels that will produce 780 metric tons of hydrogen per
day from 7020 metric tons of water per day. That 780 metric tons of
hydrogen will directly hydrogenate 6,250 tons of coal each day at two
sites in Indonesia. One on the island of Sumatra. The other on the
island of Borneo. Each site will produce 917,000 gallons of gasoline,
jet fuel and diesel fuel each day. The nearly 2 million gallons of
fuels will create $4 million in value each day. The remaining $11
billion cost of the project is for coal acquisition, handling, and
hydrogenation, along with water handling and processing - this a total
for both sites. Both sites will throw off a grand total of 275 million
gallons of fresh water will also be produced by these two facilities
each day for the local communities, along with a small amount of
hydrogen used to power 120 MW turbo-generators at each site, for AC
power for the surrounding communities as well. The present value of
the facilities when operational will exceed $170 bilion - well worth
the $13.8 billion they collectively cost. The daily production of
liquid fuels in Indonesia will increase from 1.1 million b/d to 1.4
million b/d. I will leverage the value created to expand production
3.5x - from both sites, this is the most economic level of produciton.

As the coal mines are stripped over the next 18 years, additional
panels will be added to the site, and additional electricity, hydrogen
and water production will take place. In the end, when the coal is
gone, the hydro-carbon facilities will give way to a hydrogen
distribution network and hydrogen will be sold as a fuel instead of
hydrocarbon fuels.


Besides, the first hydrogen car that explodes, killing maybe hundreds of other motorists and
pedestrians and turning its occupants into jam will halt hydrogen as a motor fuel dead in its
tracks.

Well, I can see you and the other bad boys in the major oil companies
gleefully licking their chops waiting for that to happen, and doing
whatever you can to bring it about and publicize it before and after
it happens - if it ever does. Making sure the companies are small
undercapitalized and poor managed by tortuous interference through the
oil company's venture capital arms wouldn't be beyond the pale. But
new modes of travel have always been dangerous, so don't take too much
solace in the fact that an accident is possible; Look for a remake of
the Hindenberg or the release of the Sultana about the same time the
first hydrogen cars hit the market...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultana_(steamboat)

But what the oil companies are up to is the same thing the gas
companies and Edison got up to - where one took to electrocuting dogs
in Central Park to demonstrate the dangers of electricity, as well as
promoting the electric chair,and Edison created a newspaper which
featured daily housefires, and asphyxiations caused by improperly
functioning gas systems - and Westinghouse who promoted DC current
publicized the dangers of AC current

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Currents

This is old hat, and easily accounted for in any serious run against
the major oil companies.


That. frankly is the first test that needs to be done. See what happens to a full hydrogen
tank in a heavy collision.

Nonsense. That would be like saying before we design an electrical
power network we need to short out two high voltage main lines to see
what happens before seeking investors.. haha..

What is needed is an incremental plan for using hydrogen and then
gradual introduction of the fuel as profits increase to support its
safe and reliable introduction into the market. My approach is as
follows;

(1) Create and ultra-low-cost source of hydrogen from sunlight and
water
(2) Use hydrogen on an industrial scale to convert carbon to
hydrocarbon while producing no pollution in the process.
(3) Sell hydrocarbons for profit, expanding hydrogen production and
distribution between plants - gain experience in handling,
transmitting, storing, retrieving and using hydrogen on a large scale
within the confines of the company's own plants
(4) Expand the use of pipe delivered hydrogen to select early
adopters who benefit from the use of the gas, current users of coal
for the production of steam, and metallurgical coal are examples
(5) Develop a reliable and safe means to store and retrieve and
handle hydrogen for small dispersed stationary applications - home,
office,factory
(6) Develop a reliable and safe means to store and retrieve and
handle hydrogne for small mobile applications (non automotive)
(7) Develop reliable and safe automotive applications using
accumulated experience and profits.

This could be done in as little as 8 years - properly managed - from
where I am today - using the best available technology available
today.



.

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