Re: How many hydrogen cars on the road in the US today?

On May 29, 6:50 pm, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Williamknowsbest wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
Williamknowsbest wrote:
Burning gasoline puts a specific amount of heat in your engine. If I
can put the same amount of heat into your engine heat that would cost
you $3 to buy in the form of gasoline - at a cost of less than fifteen
cents - clearly that cuts to the chase doesn't it?

You simply can't though. Furthermore you're evading the numbers.

Efficiency (power plug to wheels )

Hydrogen car with ICE ~ 6%
Hydrogen car with fuel cell ~ 12%

Electric car ~ 70-80%

It's a no-brainer really !

Graham, you're the one with no brain. Where are the costs? If I buy
a battery powered car for $65,000 - and I have to replace a $50,000
battery every 2 years or 800 charge cycles - whichever comes first -
I'm not ahead even if it only costs $0.08 per kWh to recharge it.

I just did some sums.

Okay.

15kWh will be enough electricity for most ppls' daily run. I can readily support
those numbers.

I'd like to see that. 15kWh by the way is less than 1/2 gallon -
less than 2 liters - of petrol. What are people riding on their daily
run? Electric wheelchairs?

You can buy - on ebay today - a 4.56Wh NiMH battery for about 50 pence.http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/50-AA-3800mAh-Ni-MH-Rechargeable-Battery_W0QQit...

Why not get a real reference -

http://www.allaboutbatteries.com/Battery-Energy.html

NiMH costs about $0.99 per Watt-hour - so 15kWh will cost about
$15,000

15kWh worth of those will cost you £1645.

You're off by a factor of 5.

With a 1000 cycle lifetime you'll need
to replace them about every 3 years at an annual cost of £548.

Alright - for a stinking HALF GALLON of gas storage capacity - you're
paying according to your numbers about $1,000 a year - and according
to real numbers about $5,000 per year - JUST FOR THE BATTERY

Very acceptable costs.

IF you were able to drive ALL YEAR wherever you wanted just like you
did with your present car - SURE! But you're not going to do that on
15kWh. LESS THAN 2 liters of petrol. NO WAY.

The cost of the electricity to recharge them is relatively peanuts of course.
About £1.50. And that's good for about 50 miles.

What are moving 50 miles? This is equivalent to 120 mpg. What is
your electric utility rates? $0.08 per kWh is pretty cheap. I bet
you pay more. But even at this rate you're paying $2.67 per US gallon
- which isn't peanuts. The only reason its peanuts is you rigged the
numbers - you forced everyone to use only ONE HALF GALLON OF GASOLINE
PER DAY!

How long does your trip take? An hour? A half hour? Let's say you
motor out and motor back and you take an hour total. Right? SO
you're burning energy at a rate of ONE HALF GALLON PER HOUR. That's
60 MJ per hour. 1 MJ per minute and 16.7 kW - That's 22
horsepower.

So, this is what you're having us ride? A 22 hp automobile and we're
limited to one hour a day. If you grant us 2 hours a day - hp level
drops to 11 hp.

Why not just put a motorbike engine in a golf cart and get the same
effect? A HALF GALLON OF GAS even at $5 per gallon, would only cost
$2.50 per day - would be $913 per year - and the car would certainly
be cheaper than today's models - and you wouldn't be throwing away
poisonous and limited amounts of heavy metals - An ultralight car with
a 22 hp engine - that carried one half gallon of gas - and got 120 mpg
- would be superior in every way to your ponderous golf cart that was
inferior in every way.

300 days @ 50 miles (15,000 miles p.a.) = £450 of electricity. Plus allowance
for battery replacement @ £548 = annual 'car fuel bill' of £998.

The numbers using real numbers are 6x higher than that for your car -
and if you had a real car they'd be 4x higher still - so your whole
analysis is flawed.

Consider that if you reduced a normal car to the performance of the
electric car you're contemplating - you could run it on a half gallon
per day - it would be a 22 hp model, that would be ultra-light - and
weigh far less than the battery powered monstrosity you're
contemplating - and you wouldn't have to throw away a deadly battery
every 3 years. You'd use only 182 gallons of gas in a year - and
you'd be WAY ahead of the poor sots who had to deal with batteries
every 3 years.

Comparable gasoline cost (UK) ~ £1900.

Not if you use only 182 US gallons a year you don't pay anywhere near
that.

That's a very healthy saving running an EV.

Bull*** - not in a head to head comparison of comparable cars.

Compare apples to apples to get a real picture.

There's the 22 hp model - 120 mpg - half gallon gas tank
There's the 110 hp model - 24 mpg - 10 gallon gas tank

10 gallons of gas equivalent in batteries costs about $300,000 - using
the batteries you've chosen. That's $100,000 per year - and they
weigh a tremendous amount - and they take up gobs and gobs of space.
You'd need to build the care like a mini-van - with most of the back
seating replaced with battery packs.

So, even then performance would suffer since performance is power to
weight ratio.

Sorry Graham try again.

.