Re: How many hydrogen cars on the road in the US today?

On May 30, 12:55 am, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Williamknowsbest wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
Williamknowsbest wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
Williamknowsbest wrote:
Burning gasoline puts a specific amount of heat in your engine. If I
can put the same amount of heat into your engine heat that would cost
you $3 to buy in the form of gasoline - at a cost of less than fifteen
cents - clearly that cuts to the chase doesn't it?

You simply can't though. Furthermore you're evading the numbers.

Efficiency (power plug to wheels )

Hydrogen car with ICE ~ 6%
Hydrogen car with fuel cell ~ 12%

Electric car ~ 70-80%

It's a no-brainer really !

Graham, you're the one with no brain. Where are the costs? If I buy
a battery powered car for $65,000 - and I have to replace a $50,000
battery every 2 years or 800 charge cycles - whichever comes first -
I'm not ahead even if it only costs $0.08 per kWh to recharge it.

I just did some sums.

Okay.

15kWh will be enough electricity for most ppls' daily run. I can readily support
those numbers.

I'd like to see that. 15kWh by the way is less than 1/2 gallon -
less than 2 liters - of petrol. What are people riding on their daily
run? Electric wheelchairs?

A full size (by European standards at least) car. The 'gasoline equivalent mpg' at a constant 70 mph for example is ~ 100 mpg.

50 miles is adequate daily commuting distance for most ppl and a hybrid EV of the same ilk carrying a small 30 bhp diesel generator will have
essentially unrestricted range. The diesel gennie also has the advantage of being able to provide additional heating energy from its coolant circuit
in spring / fall / winter and cooling (either mechanically or electrically driven in summer).

Yes, EV's are that good.

Graham- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV
http://www.eaaev.org/Info/eaaglossary.html

Check out the battery costs - $26,000 - to store a gallon of gas
eqivalent. Electric vehicles are interesting, but battery costs will
kill them every time.

http://www.hondaev.org/batt.html

Zinc air is a cool possibility - since the air carries some of the
energy as in fuels. There are also flow batteries that are a
possibility - sort of a fuel cell battery hybrid.

One battery not shown in any of these charts is one I like - and I'm
researching it for stationary applications -

Developed by Ford in 1965 - for EV then - and that's the Sodium Sulfur
battery.

http://www.sandia.gov/ess/Publications/presen_norris.pdf

My company is looking as Sodium Sulfur batteries for utility scale
application. Sodium, comes from salt, and suflur comes from coal
cleanup. My company desalinates seawater and converts coal to oil,
after removing the sulfur from it - so we have sodium and sulfur as a
byproduct of our main business operations.

Sodium costs about 10% the price of lead and has 11x the energy
content per kg. So, the capital cost is 1/110th that of lead acid -
AND - it can be charged and discharged over 6,000x without any
appreciable degradation - because the electrodes are liquid. So
overall costs are 1/660th that of lead-acid - which means that it has
a potential to manage the storage of electricity more cheaply than
fuel costs alone - which is impressive. Its the only battery
technology that can do that.

One major drawback, is the battery has to operate at a fairly high
temperature, and molten sodium and molten sulfur is a hazard in moving
vehicles. But I'm looking at it in stationary applications.
Basically, you have 5 kWh of battery storage for each kilowatt of
solar panel, and then discharge the battery continuously over 24 hours
at 200 watts (on average) over the entire day. That way you can drive
HVDC lines continuously with an intermittent DC solar electrical
gathering system. This has to be cheaper than variable load
electrolyzers and hydrogen pipelines to work.

But taking the data from the Honda site and applying the data from the
AEP tests here in Columbus, we can see that 3,600 kg of batteries
store 360 kWh. So, 360 kg of batteries can store 36 kWh - would give
the Honda EV a range of 164 miles. But that's not the whole story.
Since the AEP was for utility scale stationary systems, its weight was
about twice what a mobile application would be. So, mileage would
actually have been 320 or better. And here's the best part, the cost
would have been about 1/10th that of lead-acid batteries weighing the
same amount, buit delivering 1/11th the energy.

Our long-term thinking for electric vehicles are solar power parks in
sunny regions like Nevada, Arizona, California, New Mexico, connected
to large battery packs that store 5 kWh of energy for every kW of peak
power at these locations - connected to HVDC transmission systems.
These HVDC transmission systems tie into the cities, and the local
utilities provide intertie to traditional AC grids. We also provide
powered roadways for electric vehicles like the Honda EV and RAV-EV -
but without the batteries! - with EM coupling from the roadway
instead!

This is one new approach to improved transportation.

Another approach of course is hydrogen. Here we desalinate seawater
and produce hydrogen when the sun shines. We deliver fresh water and
hydrogen by pipeline to major cities. There, we distribute hydrogen
to homes and businesses, and use it to refuel hydrogen vehicles. The
advantage here is that many existing vehicles can be converted to
hydrogen at very little cost - so time to market and time to revenue
are improved. Also, the cost per GWh-mile of transmission appears to
be less with hydrogen pipeline compared to HVDC transmission line -
especially when storing electricity is taken into account. But
engineers from ABB assure me that if we can complete research on a 6
MegaVolt transmission system - costs can be competitive with 10,000
psi hydrogen pipelines.

But the jury is still out on whether we create a network to distribute
solar electrons or solar protons across North America and ultimately
the world.




.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: How many hydrogen cars on the road in the US today?
    ... a battery powered car for $65,000 - and I have to replace a $50,000 ... I'm not ahead even if it only costs $0.08 per kWh to recharge it. ... The electric car with battery is cheaper by a long way. ... as soon as gasoline dropped below $10 per gallon. ...
    (sci.energy.hydrogen)
  • Re: Again, PalmOne proves Tungsten E is disposable crap...
    ... > replacement service. ... When the Li-ion battery wears out after 3 years from ... "feels" more expensive than it costs. ... Given that PDA technology is advancing rapidly, ...
    (microsoft.public.pocketpc)
  • Re: Serious system crash
    ... and the wiring in the power switch-over circuitry) are significant ... That's what UPS are for, and they are MUCH less expensive. ... are scattered across 3 floors so wiring costs were pretty high. ... but a decent lead-acid battery will survive far beyond the rated power ...
    (alt.os.linux.suse)
  • Re: My ebike is legal!
    ... Much less than your car. ... I wonder how the electricity gets into the bike and how much that costs ... Have you considered the elements that go into making the battery pack ...
    (uk.rec.cycling)
  • Re: The death of railways due to new more efficient cars ?
    ... it supplies. ... at home from your own power point, but you still buy the electricity ... If the battery is worn out, ... But as we see from the interminable debates about the true cost of running a car it's clear that people are very biassed towards superficially low running costs while ignoring capital costs. ...
    (uk.railway)