Re: National Hydrogen Pipeline

On May 31, 1:07 pm, Don Lancaster <d...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Bill Ward wrote:
On Thu, 31 May 2007 05:58:07 +0000, Dan Bloomquist wrote:

Bill Ward wrote:

On Wed, 30 May 2007 06:47:24 -0700, Willie.Mookie wrote:

On May 30, 1:38 am, Bill Ward <b...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Tue, 29 May 2007 09:04:23 -0700, Williamknowsbest wrote:

On May 29, 10:12 am, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Williamknowsbest wrote:

Low cost solar panels

No such thing..........

<shrug> Whatever! haha..

Fact is they do. Despite your claims.

http://www.freshpatents.com/Solar-panels-with-liquid-superconcentrato...

http://www.delphion.com/details?pn=US07081584__

I make ultra-low-cost solar panels out of PET, EPS, water and PV dies
of a unique design.

I take six sheets of molded PET bond them together in a water bath to
form three separate arrays of liquid filled lenses.

These lenses are sandwiched into molded EPS to form a an array of
fisheye lenses that focus light onto a proprietary holographic foil
located at the lens image plane - so tracking is unecessary and ground
orientation may be arbitrary and still maintain high intensity.

Light reflects from the foil and is focused onto tiny PV cells each
3/4 mm across mounted on the back side of the second lens in the
stack. Each PV cell contains 40 PV junctions in series, covered by a
dichroic mirror that has a bandpass filter on it to restrict light

from 1,100 nm to 650 nm. So the PV cells, cooled by water and shaded

by a bandpass filter on the front and operating at 28 V each, operate
efficiently at 1,100x solar intensity with very little parasitic
heating.

A 4' x 8' x 3/4inch panel, contains 4,608 discrete lenses that produce
a total of 540 watts under full illumination at 1.3 kV and 400 mA.

The panels are fabricated on rotary molds 8 ft wide, continuously.
They are wired together automatically into strings of 2,544 panels -
each nearly 2 miles long and 8 ft wide. The strings produce 1.0 to
1.3 MW when fully illuminated. There are two connections on each
string to attach a DC powered device - the best value is obtained when
variable load electrolyzers are attached to convert solar power to
hydrogen. Also there is a DC powered multi-stage flash evaporator
available to produce salt and fresh water from seawater.

40,000 liters of fresh water and 1.4 metric tons of salt are produced
for every MWh intercepted by the system. Water is worth $25 and salt
is worth $25

20 kg of hydrogen and 160 kg of oxygen are produced from 180 kg of
fresh water for every MWh intercepted by the system. The hydrogen is
worth about $100 considering its heat value and the heat value of
petrol.

If you're using salt water as a feed for hydrogen, you'll need 1
string of desalanators for every 220 strings of hydrogen producers. If
you're irrigating land and so forth, this can vary.

For best results, 1320 strings are ganged together to form a 2 mile by
2 mile square that produces 1.32 GW to 1.75 GW when the sun shines.
Each square costs about $93 million installed.

For best value you have a mixed mode system. Producing DC electricity
to run the facilities, hydrogen gas for sale to a (formerly) coal
fired plant, hydrogen for hydrogenating the unburned coal into petrol.

You cannot buy the squares, but you can pay for them and their
operation however, and that gets you 65% of the water, salt, and
hydrogen and petrol produced. I build own and operate the plants.
They are financed through project financing. Most investors get their
project partners get their seed capital back in less than a year, and
get most of their profits back in less than 3 years by monetizing
future production.

http://www.mitrais.com/mining/miningNews060818.asp

The PET films, EPS foam and DI water are all very inexpensive. PV
cells are not. But they are used efficiently. A 100 mm diameter
wafer yields 10,000 high intensity dies - more than enough for two
panels. Total cost per panel for PV dies? $6.50 - 300 mm wafers
yield 90,000 dies - enough for 130 panels. We are currently using
equipment that processes 100 mm dies at 60 wph - but are moving toward
equipment that uses 300 mm dies operates at 250 wph.

I am building a facility that will produce 1 string every half hour
using the larger faster PV equipment to feed it. I then will increase
rates of production so that the equipment will produce 10 strings per
hour - supported by 5 back end and front end production cells to keep
pace with the wafers.

When will you have first production quantities?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm acquiring an 83,000 sf property now - a former pharmaceutical
warehouse - with cleanrooms - so, I'm bringing stuff I've outsourced in
the past in-house. I'm buying a 60 wph 100 mm wafer fab for front end
and backend process for my high-intensity dies and special lead frames
that connect with the optics and moving my design team to the new
facility - along with the injection mold equipment, machine shop and so
forth - which was in a 10,000 sf building in Newark Ohio which I'm
selling now. I'm putting together a new rotary mold right now that will
run off miles of panels instead of pressing parts for a 1 ft square then
change tools, another set of parts, change tools.. etc. - good for pilot
production and testing new designs - bad for production.

I gave my guys six months - they said they could do it- if I didn't
change the design up on them. haha.. So,we froze the design and we'll
have our first 2 mile strip in a few months.

Once that's done the strip will be hauled out West and tested. This
will likely take a few spins to get right. I've got some land out West
to test it on, and each of those spins will take about 3 and maybe up to
6 weeks - another six months of tweaking - I have a budget to build 100
strings each 2 miles long produced over this testing period.

Then I'll focus on increasing rates of production - and get the project
trustees - who are watching the money for all of this - to release more
money for higher speed and bigger wafer fab - to be installed in the
unused clean room. 300 mm wafers and 250 wph - mean I can do 2 strings
an HOUR - which is all I need for the project.

1320 strings form a 'square' 2x2 miles and 9 squares are needed for each
of the projects in Indoneisa to make hydrogen from water on a scale
sufficient to fire the solar assisted Bergius reactor to make 200,000
b/d of blended liquid fuels (dieself fuel, jet fuel, gasoline blend no
bottoms).

Another project is underway in Australia that makes fresh water and salt

from seawater - since one of the trustees lives there and they've got a

crisis

This whole production schedule will take 18 months - including
installation at the remote facility. This in addition to 18 months at
the outset - the period we're in now.

So it sounds like you expect to have the first production prototypes in
6 or 8 months, with full production in 18 months.

Christ Bill. This is the same idiot that has been posting for years
here......

Yeah, I know. But he's never given a production date before. The product
kept changing, but now he says he's frozen the design. Some of his ideas
are innovative and plausible, but getting to a production prototype that
can actually be built for his estimated cost will not be easy.

If he actually has a demonstrable, producible prototype in 8 months,
I'll be impressed. He'll have to hire some experienced, practical
designers to get there. Highly creative people usually can't stop trying
to improve the product, and have schedule problems.

That may raise issues when the VC folks start monitoring progress. They
often worry quite vocally when schedules slip. I have no idea how much
background in the area Mook has, but since he doesn't seem to have the
cockiness knocked out of him yet, I'd guess not much.

I do hope he can at least get some inexpensive solar panels on the market.

Wish him luck. He's going to need it.

There is a very simple test to determine if a pv system is ever going to
be capable of fully burdened net energy...

Does it use conventional silicon?

If so there is not a snowballs chance in hell of EVER acheiving fully
burdened net energy production.

The big lie about pv is that it is renewable or sustainable.
At present, it is not, and with the present approaches, it never will be.

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf

--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss:http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: d...@xxxxxxxxxx

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site athttp://www.tinaja.com- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Silicon at normal solar intensity actually consumes more energy than
it makes over its useful life. But multiply the light intensity
1,000 times normal intensity and the economics change. Suddenly
you're getting 1,000 times the energy for a given amount of silicon -
and you get payback in very short time period.

There are balance of system costs to consider, but all in all, my
first generation devices operate at 1/100th the cost of conventional
silicon cells.

Heat management is a huge issue. I approach this by combining several
factors;

(1) Multijunction operation - increased voltage, decreased current
(2) Dichroic filter - only effective light falls on the silicon
(3) Immersed in liquid - improved temperature control

Parasitic heating goes away with low resistance connections and high
voltage operation. 40 junctions in series reduce current by 40x and
parastic heating by 1600 times. With electrode resistance 1/100th that
of conventional cells, parasitic heating is virtially nonexistant.

At high intensity ineffective photons contribute substantial amounts
of heat. Anything redder than the bandgap energy (1,108 nm in the
case of Silicon) and the photons just heat the die, and do not operate
it. So, that gets reflected out of the system by a dichroic mirror.
Anything shorter than 554 nm contributes more heat than light to the
operation of the die, and it too gets reflected out. The result, a
bandpass filter between 1,100 and 560 nm - that rejects 80% of the
heat and admits 80% of the current producing light.

So, a cell with 23% efficiendcy that admits 80% of the effective light
through an optical bandpass filter has an overall efficiency of 18% -
so, 180 Watts/m2

A cell with 23% efficiency that rejects 80% of the ineffective light
through an optical bandpass filter rejects 61.6% of the light falling
on it - or 616 Watts/m2

Now light in minus light reflected minus light converted to useful
work, leave the light that must be rejected as heat; so;

1000 Watts/m2 - 616 Watts/m2 - 180 Watts/m = 204 Watts/m2

1/5th of the energy falling on a multi-junction PV die with a dichroic
filter and appropriate load ends up being rejected as heat.

Convective cooling in a water bath achieves 30 Watts/cm2 heat sink
rates- that's 300,000 Watts/m2 of area.. Five times this amounts is
1,500,000 Watts/m2 - which is 1,500x solar intensity! I operate at
a little under 1,200x solar intensity.

A lens with a collector area of 1 square inch illuminates a PV die
that's 750 microns on a side - uniformly in excess of 1,000
solars.

600 milliwatts passes through a lens 1 inch square. This gets focused
onto a die that's 0.56 sq mm in area. This is a little more than
1,000x solar intensity. Of this 289.6 milliwatts gets reflected out
of the system. 108 milliwatts gets converted to electrial power - and
122.4 milliwatts get sunk as heat. This is 10.9 Watts/cm2 when one
considers that both sides of the die sink heat when bathed in a water
bath.


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