Re: Best Books on Hydrogen Future Possibilities


I'd like to thank Don and everyone else that answered (will answer).

"Don Lancaster" wrote:
A book list appears at http://www.tinaja.com/h2gas01.asp

Thanks!





"Don Lancaster" wrote:
But the hydrogen economy ain't gonna happen.

Well, I did read here a bit before posting. I GET that many here think that
hydrogen "ain't gonna happen." But I like to explore things for myself. I
don't intend (or need) to do experiments or even learn all the chemestry.
But I don't intend to just take the word of people that thing it is (or
isn't) going to happen. I want to read about it from lots of sources and in
some detail.

So, again, thanks for the book list.



"Don Lancaster" wrote:
Here are the arguments against the hydrogen economy:




I'm going to respond to this list. ~ In general, I do get your gist: There
are lots of obstacles and they are probably not surmountable. But, as you
will see in my responce, I'm not convinced, yet. I see this list a little
like saying, "We can't take that trip because we: Don't have a car. Haven't
packed. Have more stuff then any car could possibly carry. Have no money for
gas. Don't even know if a road goes where we want to go. ~~ Maybe it's
insurmountable. But just listing the problems, while overwhelming, does not
proove there is no value or hope.

Please, do not take this to mean that I believe that hydrogen is or will be
viable. Only that I don't (yet) believe that it's hopleless. I guess in the
most fundamental sense, that's why I'm here: To find out if I believe it's a
possibility or hopeless.



1. Terrestral hydrogen is ONLY an energy carrier...

Yep, I understamd that. But, as with electricity, a new carrier
might open up many useful possibilities.


2. Terrestral hydrogen creation is inefficient
as considerably more energy of usually
much higher quality has to be input than
is eventually returnable.


Any carrier is going to be less than 100%
efficient. That does not make it useless. It
just means there are limits and also barriers to
overcome. (If we can.)


3. No large terrestral source of hydrogen gas
is known. Water, of course, is a hydrogen
sink and, by fundamental chemical energitics,
is the worst possible feedstock.


Ok, this is a restatement of #1. Hydrogen is only a
carrier, not a source. We've estalished that.

4. The CONTAINED energy density of terrestral
hydrogen by weight is a lot LESS than gasoline.
And drops dramatically as the tank is emptied.
The energy density of hydrogen gas by volume
is a ludicrous joke.


Well, "ludicrous joke" is getting not only subjective
but downright biased. But OK, you're entitled if you
want.

Just because it's energy density is much
less than gas does not necessarily mean it's useless.

When the oil runs out the "energy density" of gas
is going to be zero ;-) So lets keep exploring our
options, shall we?

5. Virtually all bulk hydrogen is produced by methane
reformation. And thus is EXTREMELY hydrocarbon
dependent.


Yea, OK. But this is speaking to how hydrogen is produced today.
This does not mean that hydrogen HAS to be produced this way
in the future. ~ Put another way: That's the whole point -- to
find ways to produce and use hydrogen that do not rely on the
current fuels.

6. Hydrogen has the widest explosive range known,
the least spark energy required for ignition, and
has no known colorants or odorants. Its flame is
often invisible or nearly so.


Admittedly not knowing the science, I find this argument to
be the least worrisom. Sure, explosions are bad. But IF we're
able to overcome the production and volume/storage problems,
I'm willing to bet it can be made reaonable safe (for at least
some uses).


7. There is more hydrogen in a gallon of gasoline
than there is in a gallon of liquid hydrogen.


Ok, so you're back to redundantly repeating arguments again :-)

A point that is good or bad, true or false, is not made more
true or more false by repeating it. ~ (If I didn't grok how
#4 is not the same as #7 -- then sorry.)


8. No effective vehicle compatible means of hydrogen
storage is known that is remotely as cheap, safe,
dense, and convenient as carbon bonded hydrides.


Lots of things, in fact all things, are not known unil,
well...until they're known. Also, vehicles are not the only
possible use of hydrogen.

I do get your point though:

We have a lot of obstacles to overcome if hydrogen is
going to be viable. And since these obstacles are so
numerous and huge, and given we are not even "remotely"
close...it may be hopeless.

But if we don't try it certainly won't happen. The question is,
for how long do we try? When do we give up?

This is a relevent question if a government is to be involved. No
sense spending government money (or giving tax incentives) if it's
useless. But the question is who and when do we agree it's useless?
Lots of things that seemed impossible throughout history are now
commonplace. On the other hand, some thigns ARE impossible.

Fortunetly, non-governement people & businesses will probably
pursue this to exactly the right point, whether that be to failure or
success.


9. No infrastructure exists for gaseous hydrogen
distribution. Pipelines in particular raise major
density and embrittlement issues.


This is two seperate points.

9A. No infrastructure exists.

Most things don't exist until, well...until they do.


9B. There are density and embrittlement isssues.

Ok. Right. Yes. ~ Question is: Can they be solved?

This list seems to be written with the attitude that the
problems can not be overcome. And maybe they can't.

But they certainly will not be overcome if
we assume from the outset that they can't.

And just listing the problems is not sufficient for me to give up.

In fact, having well identified problems leads me to
have MORE hope the issues can be solved.


10. Electrolysis from high value sources such as
grid, wind, or pv is totally useless as a hydrogen
source because of the staggering loss of exergy.
There ALWAYS will be more intelligent things
to do with the electricity.


This, in some ways, might be the crux of the matter. If
hydrogen can't be made efficient, it might be too inefficient
to be useful. But two things...

A: Maybe it can be made efficient enough to be useful. ~ Just
stating that is isn't and "ALWAYS" won't be is not proof. It's
not even insightful. It's just stating a fact followed by an
assertion.

B: Even if is can't be made efficient, possibly it doesn't
matter. ~ If some energy source (nuclear) could produce
all the energy cheaply, than the "carrier" properties is
all that would count.

GRANTED: You have also pointed out that there are
numerous and difficult hurdles in using H as a carrier. So
maybe both the source and carrier issues make H hopelss.
But I don't think that's proven yet.




11. Improper burning of hydrogen produces highly
polluting nitrous oxides.


Ahh, I've heard only a very little about this. I'd like to find
out more. Its one of the things I'm hoping to find in the books
I'm going to read.

Do you have any good web or book sources for information on this?

(I don't ask that in a "proove it" tone. I believe
you. I just want to find out more.)

12. Terrestrial hydrogen is basically a POLLUTION
AMPLIFIER that INCREASES the pollution of
its underlying sources. It is utterly ludicrous to
claim that hydrogen is in any manner, way,
shape, or form "nonpolluting".


Lets double back to the redundancy department before we
go any further forward. ~ If you mean that H derived from
current fuels still produces the pollution of those fules...we
covered that in #5.

And if you mean that H is itself a pollutant, we just
covered that in #11.


13. Hydrogen rots most metals through embrittlement.


Ok, now you're just trying to get on my nerves, yea?

We covered storage, distribution, and embrittlement issues in #8 and #9.

You made good points there. I see what you're saying
and think you may well be right. But constantly repeating make
me think of the Bush run-up to war in Iraq. Repeating something
does not make it true (or false for that matter).


14. "Carbon Neutral" solutions would appear better
than "Carbon Free" because (A) A significant
measure of the energy of most fuels is in its carbon
fraction, (B) Carbon appears to be essential for
convenient and safe room temperature liquids,
and (C) Reformation is not required or else
is simpler, cheaper, and wastes less energy.


Ok, honestly I'm getting tired. But, THIS is a decent perspective.

If Caron Neutral solutions can be found, that may well be
a better (set of) solutions. But remember this: I'll bet someone
could easily some up with a list of 15 reasons that "ain't gonna
happen." ~ Hopefully you won't let that list of nay-saying prevent
you from being interested in that approach.



15. An optimal hydrogen storage solution exists by
carbon bonding as in heptane or iso-octane. Both
of these room temperature liquids ain't broke.


Now I don't know what you are saying. Are you saying there
are liquids that we can use as energy that are non-polluting,
renewable, safe, etc? ~ Where does heptane and iso-octane
come from?


ANYWAY, many thanks to you Don. I really am NOT arguing with you. I
appreciate knowing
the problems and obstacles. It's what I came here for: To find out what the
obstacles are and to
get the best thinking on how these might be solve and/or why they just can't
be.

By the way: I use the word "obstacles". I fully realize that some things,
possibly most in this case,
are physical laws that aren't just "obstacles.

Peace & Hope,
Gary


--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: don@xxxxxxxxxx

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com


.

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