Re: Best Books on Hydrogen Future Possibilities

<Willie.Mookie@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message ...
On Jan 7, 2:15 am, "Don W" <dNOSPAMwidd...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
<Willie.Moo...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote

This is a mischaracterization based on faulty analysis. Hydrogen is
produced today in laboratories and in fertilizer plants around the
world by a wide variety of means. Some involve electrolytic
decomposition of water to form hydrogen. Other processes involve the
shift reaction of water with carbon to form hydrogen. In all cases
the source of hydrogen is the same - water.

You obviously have a lot more time to spend posting to this newsgroup
than I
have,

Not really. It took you a helluva long time to come up with that list
of bull*** you keep repeating, and you repeat it over and over and
over again - which must take HUGE amounts of your time. I don't have
time to keep up with your repetitive posting of the same errors.

You must be thinking of someone else. Please cite where I "keep repeating"
anything. You may have the last word here as I do have better things to do
with my time and it's unlikely I'll continue replying to your silliness.

so I'll only respond to this one itty, bitty point.

Alright


Talk about mischaracterization!

?? Okay, lets.

The hydrogen used in fertilizer plants is
all made from hydrocarbons (and yes, a little of that hydrogen is
contributed by water

half if you use natural gas, all of it if you use coal.

Virtually all commercial hydrogen comes from reformed natural gas. You can
probably show me where someone is making hydrogen from coal and I'll find
that mildly interesting but of no significant consequence.

which also contributes some of the O in the CO2.)

Yeah, I gave the reactions;

C + 2 H2O --> CO2 + 2 H2 for coal
CH4 + 2 H2O --> CO2 + 4 H2 for natural gas

Slight over-simplification, but in the end what goes in and what comes out
are correct. Who cares? Let's get back to the statement to which you
referred as a "mischaracterization":

3. No large terrestral source of hydrogen gas
is known. Water, of course, is a hydrogen
sink and, by fundamental chemical energitics,
is the worst possible feedstock.

Water is ASH (Already Suckeddryofitsenergy Hydrogen). So one would have to
agree that for bulk energy storage applications, water isn't necessarily the
best place to go looking for hydrogen. The reactions you gave imply that
water happily renders its hydrogen when mixed with methane and of course
that is not the case. When coaxed with heat from an external source and the
partial oxidation of the carbon (in the presence of a catalyst) the water
grudgingly renders its hydrogen to the reactor and it's oxygen to the carbon
to create carbon monoxide. This reaction is endothermic -- it requires
energy from an outside source in addition to the methane feedstock.
Fortunately, part of that energy can be supplied by the second reaction of
CO with H2O. It still takes just as much energy to coax water into giving
up its hydrogen, but this time the CO is so desperate to get hold of another
O that it supplies the energy required to do the coaxing. In the end, water
supplies NONE of the energy and overall recoverable hydrogen chemical energy
is less than 70% of the energy that would have been available just by
burning the original supply of methane.

Perhaps Mr. Lancaster's point might have been better made just by saying
"there ain't no more chemical energy left in water", but a
mischaracterization it was not. Hydrogen economy proponents are indeed
mischaracterizing water when they say that hydrogen is the most plentiful
element on the Earth's surface. There's virtually no H2 on the Eath's
surface, only hydrogen ASH. H2 = very fluffy chemical energy. H2O = wet
stuff without any chemical energy.


The
only place you'll find electrolytic decomposition of water forming
hydrogen
for storage of significant quantities of energy is in government
subsidized
pilot programs designed to make it look like hydrogen is a feasible
automotive fuel.

Electrolytic decomposition of water is used to supply oxygen to
nuclear submarines,
(ENERGY SUPPLIED BY NUCLEAR REACTION FOR THE PURPOSE OF SUPPLYING OXYGEN TO
THE SUB -- NOT FOR STORAGE OF SIGNIFICANT QUANTITIES OF ENERGY)
and its used in a wide range of laboratory and
industrial processes where the quality of hydrogen is an important
factor and cannot use hydrogen thats polluted with CO2 and other
chemicals.
....AND THESE APPLICATIONS INVOLVE THE STORAGE OF SIGNIFICANT QUANTITIES OF
ENERGY? YOU'RE REACHING, BUT NOT QUITE GRASPING.

Electrolytic decomposition of water is used in a variety
of demonstration and development projects. Characterizing these
programs as attempts by the government to lie about the feasability of
hydrogen as a transportation fuel is a mischracterization of these
programs and reveals an underlying misapprehension on your part of the
role of demonstration and development projects.

Of course those programs are nothing more than propaganda! The cost of
electrolytically decomposing water is astronomical in comparison to the
value of the LHV of the resulting hydrogen. This is not a practical way of
making fuel, but if the government spends enough money on it they might
persuade some people that it is. Allow me to provide you with a link to a
government document showing how our government feels we must be
endoctrinated:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/national_h2_roadmap.pdf

Go straight to chapter 8 (page 35), "Education and Outreach". Here is a
quote (I apologize about the length, but it's a classic propaganda effort
and I didn't want to cut out a single word):
"Develop a comprehensive public education and outreach program.
Hydrogen needs to get "on the map" and in the minds of consumers. Getting
the
message out will require a coordinated effort by government, industry, and
non-profit
communities to develop a broad-based education and outreach program. This
program,
which should be developed as soon as possible, should include public
relations and
advertising campaigns. Public spokespersons need to be identified and media
briefing
packets produced. A product recognition tag, similar to EnergyStar®, should
be
developed, and hydrogen success stories should be touted. Other public
relations and
outreach activities would include:
?? Construction of traveling exhibits on hydrogen
?? Expansion of online hydrogen databases and information center
?? Creation of compact disks and Internet marketing materials
Key components of the education and public relations program include the
creation of
effective consumer messages, awareness campaigns, and media outreach.
Innovative ideas
and creative incentives are needed to prime the population for migration
toward a
hydrogen economy. Consumers need to feel compelled to learn more about
hydrogen and
must be clear about how a hydrogen economy can benefit the environment and
energy
security of the Nation.

Hydrogen needs to be "branded" and "personalized" for the consumer; safety
needs to
be stressed. Messages need to be consistent (e.g., "Hydrogen is the Freedom
Fuel,"
"Hydrogen-It Works," or "Hydrogen is 'The Power'").

In addition, industry should work with filmmakers to include product
placement in
movies. Community models and exhibits should also be developed to promote
consumer
participation and action.

Create a public demonstration hydrogen village. Homebuilders, architects,
lending institutions, realtors, technology manufacturers, and related
associations should
lead an effort to launch a community model or hydrogen village that
identifies
stakeholders, products, and the infrastructure of a hydrogen economy.
Multiple villages,
in whole or in part, could be situated in strategic locations across the
United States as
instructional models for outreach programs directed toward students,
government, and
industry.
Commit resources for long-term education of students at all levels. Student
education is a key component to broadcasting the hydrogen message and
developing a
knowledgeable, involved hydrogen support network. Without a targeted
technology (and
applications-level) education program for students and teachers, our past
will continue to
define our future. Long-term resources should be committed to educate all
students.
Easy-to-integrate curricula should be developed for kindergarten to grade
12, vocational,
four-year engineering, and advanced-degree students. Hydrogen education
packages
should be created, including lesson plans, videos, demonstration hardware,
and
experiments to help educate science teachers and their students.

Educator training should be made available to all interested teachers
through summer
workshops and in-service training. Prizes could be offered for college-level
engineering
theses and projects on vehicle systems, stationary applications, and storage
technologies.
In addition, a hydrogen fellowship program should be created to encourage
interest in
the industry at the graduate-level. Lead organizations for this effort
include the National
Science Teachers Association, the U.S. Department of Education, education
agencies
and boards, and textbook publishing companies. This effort should begin
immediately
with an inventory of educational resources and development of teacher
training materials
that can be integrated with existing energy education materials."

In other words, the hydrogen economy is a washout on its own merits, so
we'll just have to sell everyone on the bad idea!



haha... which I find
interesting because you're the one who keeps shouting for examples of
things working. Well here they are! It turns out that you KNOW of
these systems, but sweep them under the rug and continue voicing your
mis-statements as if they didn't exist. Just goes to show the lengths
you'll go to to avoid the truth and continue repeating your erroneous
mistatements.

www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/euiw_3_doe_utility.pdf

I'm glad you're amused, but again it seems you're confusing me with someone
else. I've never shouted for examples of things working. It seems to me
you're avoiding the truth because you're trying to capitalize on something
that doesn't make sense and isn't going to make sense without some false
assumptions. If you're as smart as you say you are, then you already know
those assumptions to be false.

Oh well, I'm outta here. Try to have a good life, Mook, and please don't
forget the virtues of honesty and helping others as opposed to scamming
them.

Don W.


.