Re: Hydro Ocean Power - Tidal gererators

From: Anthony Matonak (res04ijs_at_gte.net)
Date: 08/11/04 

Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 19:28:06 GMT

James Curts wrote:
> "Don Kelly" <dhky@peeshaw.ca> wrote in message
>>"Gordon Muir" <gordonmuir2003google@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>>>The examples given to proove it would not work dont take into
>>>consideration all the forces of the sea and gravity and water pressure
>>>and weight,
>>
>>Actually they do. ...
>
> I had not noticed this argument before but now that I have I find some of
> the replies somewhat in the form of boiler plate denial.

The replies are in the form of a boiler plate denial because the
proposed idea is in the form of a boiler plate troll/perpetual
motion device. It doesn't warrant more effort in denial than went
into proposing it in the first place.

> Were it not for the unmeasured and random times of extreme destructive
> violence produced by the seas' actions we would have more diligently
> harnessed their forces long ago.

Actually, there are a number of issues with ocean power apart from
the destructiveness of storms. One of the issues is that the equipment
has to be under water which makes maintaining it more difficult.
Another issue is that the water is somewhat corrosive and full of life.
The concentration of energy is also fairly low and usually at good
distances from civilization. This means the equipment has to be big
and the power lines long.

> Let us not put down an idea just because it was not presented in technical
> terms.

It wasn't the presentation that garnered all the put downs (or at least,
most of them) but the fact that the idea is completely unworkable as
presented, has been presented before and was cross posted to newsgroups
with opposing philosophies. The theory it's based on is also easily
proven wrong.

Let's go back to the original troll.

Gordon Muir wrote:
> I have a hydro ocean power idea that works by putting a giant scoop on
> the sea floor with a pipe connected to the bottom then going along the
> sea floor up to a power generator on land,what happens is the water
> pressure is concentrated into the scoop like a jet engine air intake
> and the water pressure in the pipe would be greater than gravity so it
> would be powrful enough to turn the generator then the water goes out
> another pipe into the sea,

As described, the idea is to use the difference in water pressure at
the bottom of the ocean and the top of the ocean. Place a pipe going
down to the bottom and the enormous water pressure will cause the
water to jet out of the top of the pipe and shoot up into the air.
Clearly this does not work this way. Place a straw in a cup of water
and the water does not shoot up out of the straw into the air. Various
perpetual motion devices have used this (non-working) principle in
the past and none of them have worked. Some of these designs go back
thousands of years so it's not even a new idea.

Now, let's say we ignore what was actually said and try to come up with
a design that incorporates parts of this that might actually work.
Obviously you won't get a pressure difference in the top of a pipe
simply by placing it in a depth of water. How else might you get that
pressure difference? Well, water has different temperatures at depth
and on the top of the ocean. You could go the ocean thermal energy
method and use this difference in temperature to run a thermal engine.
OTEC is based on this and has been worked on for many years.
http://www.nrel.gov/otec/

Perhaps we don't want to use temperature differences. What else do
we have available? Well, there are ocean currents. Very often you
will have a deep ocean current going in one direction and a top
ocean current going in the opposite direction. If we place a pipe
with the ends pointed in the right directions (like the letter C)
then the water will be pushed in one end and pulled out the other
by the opposing currents. Unfortunately, the currents are rather
slow so the pipe would have to be very large diameter to reduce
friction losses. What if we dispense with the pipe entirely and
just place turbines in the two currents? Tie them together with a
strong steel cable and use computer controls to "fly" both turbines
to keep them in the same location and both pulling with the same
force. Then again, why use both currents? Using just one and anchoring
the turbine to the sea floor would be just as good and would work
well closer to shore where the power is needed anyhow. Oh, but
then this doesn't look much like the original idea, does it?

Perhaps we could use tidal power in the open ocean. After all, the
sea does rise and fall out there as much as it does close to shore.
All you need to do is place a big pipe vertically in the ocean with
one end sticking up in the air and the other open at a depth lower
than the tide ever gets. Anchor it well so that it can't move up
and down. Place a turbine inside and the water will rise and fall
inside that pipe just like it does on land. Of course, the pipe would
have to be very large and it would only produce power a couple of
times a day. Very large is perhaps an understatement. Mind boggling
large is more like it. You might do better to have a large chamber
filled with a compressible fluid, like air, at the bottom of the
ocean. As the water pressure changes the air volume will change to
match.

Pressure changes could be used on land as well. After all, barometric
pressure is always changing. All you need is a large sealed container
and some device to make use of the air changing in volume inside.
It would work even better if exposed to the sun because then you can
make use of day/night temperature changes as well. In fact, the atmos
clocks use this very principle.
http://www.atmosclocks.com/

I'm sure there are even more exotic ways of harnessing power from
the ocean. After all, the sea floor is spreading so if you place
a device anchored to either plate then you can harness incredible
forces. You might need some significant gearing though as they don't
spread very fast. Then again, there are undersea vents spewing hot
water continuously. I'm sure a thermal engine could use this very
easily. Pity it's rather a long way to civilization from the mid
ocean trenches.

Anthony

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