Re: Hydro Ocean Power - Tidal gererators

From: Don Kelly (dhky_at_peeshaw.ca)
Date: 08/16/04 

Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 04:01:31 GMT

"Gordon Muir" <gordonmuir2003google@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:81f1ac17.0408151018.4f202a39@posting.google.com...
> My very detailed important reply to Don Kelly is further down just
> incase you miss it or bypass it.
> Gordon Muir.
>
> "Don Kelly" <dhky@peeshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:<ncbTc.96386$M95.77303@pd7tw1no>...
> > "Gordon Muir" <gordonmuir2003google@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:81f1ac17.0408130657.54658a56@posting.google.com...
> > > "K. Jones" <shadetree1999@hotmailNODAMNSPAM.com> wrote in message
> > news:<SpNSc.18992$a65.861411@news20.bellglobal.com>...
> > > > "James Curts" <Ontheball@winners.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:w%sSc.237142$a24.44501@attbi_s03...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Don Kelly" <dhky@peeshaw.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:DgfSc.72000$gE.52735@pd7tw3no...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Gordon Muir" <gordonmuir2003google@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:81f1ac17.0408100858.4959d94d@posting.google.com...
> > > > > > > Thanks for all your replies,im posting this again because i
> > believe it
> > > > > > > can work and thanks for the U.S. energy websites,i have sent
my
> > idea
> > > > > > > to them aswell.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The examples given to proove it would not work dont take into
> > > > > > > consideration all the forces of the sea and gravity and water
> > pressure
> > > > > > > and weight,its like saying you cant fly at mach 3 because the
> > plane
> > > > > > > would melt or the structure would warp but the Black Bird spy
> > plane
> > > > > > > got around all these problems.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Gordon Muir.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Actually they do. The principles are well established and known.
> > Read
> > about
> > > > > > Bernouli- also find out why one can't use a canvas fire hose as
a
> > syphon.
> > > > > > Wishful thinking doesn't substitute for analysis.
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Don Kelly
> > > > > > dhky@peeshaw.ca
> > > > > > remove the urine to answer
> > > > >
> > > > > Hmmm............
> > > > >
> > > > > I had not noticed this argument before but now that I have I find
> > some of
> > > > > the replies somewhat in the form of boiler plate denial.
> > > > >
> > > > > We use the Bernouli valves in chemical injections systems with
regard
> > to
> > > > > applying nutrients to the water in hydroponics food production.
> > > > >
> > > > > Were it not for the unmeasured and random times of extreme
destructive
> > > > > violence produced by the seas' actions we would have more
diligently
> > > > > harnessed their forces long ago. Research and experience will at
some
> > point
> > > > > in time assertain at what cost it is practicle to move forward
with
> > > > > installation of huge working units. Today we have several sources
of
> > energy
> > > > > which stave off the need to rely significantly on harnessing the
sea
> > and
> > > > > embracing the ensuing high costs of doing so.
> > > > >
> > > Thanks James Curts for the website below,do you live in Scotland and
> > > what do you think about my seabed scoop hydro power idea?
> > >
> > > I looked at all the other inventions on the website like tidal wave
> > > machines and propeller turbines and compared to my idea they are very
> > > complicated and not very efficient and would not even produce one
> > > percent of the electricity my idea would produce,my idea could power a
> > > whole city and all the vehicals aswell if they had electric engines.
> > >
> > > They should replace the turbine propellers with giant corkscrew
> > > propellers inside a funnel,this would create 100% percent efficiency
> > > by concentrating all the force of the water pressure onto the
> > > propellers,the same should be done with wind farm turbine
> > > propellers,at the moment they are only running at 1%-5% percent of the
> > > power they could produce.
> > >
> > > Gordon Muir.
>
> WIND TURBINE.
> What i mean is the propellers are probably very efficient but not for
> wind turbines but a corkscrew propellor inside a cone shape would
> concentrate all the force of the wind onto the blades but with normal
> aeroplane propellors the wind is skimming of the blades and there is
> very little surface for the wind to push against then there is the air
> friction to slow the blades down,if all these wind turbines i see
> being put up all over the U.K. had corkscrew propellors there power
> would increase at least 4 times more output of electricity.
--------------
Any efficiency analysis on such a device? So far I see words , not factual
analysis or any principles. Please note that you are talking pressure- not
energy- there is a very important difference. What happens to the flow of
the fluid? Turbine/ propellor design is well established and the people
doing this design(I am not one of them although I have had some background
exposure to fluid dynamics and turbines, both in theory and in practice.)
do happen to know what they are doing and do know about corkscrew
propellers.
>
> The wind has to blow into the corkscrew which has a rod axle running
> through the centre inside horizontaly and all this would be incased in
> a funnel to concentrate the air pressure onto the blades and this
> would stop nearly all air friction from slowing the outside of the
> blades down and there would be a tail fin on the narrow end of the
> funnel to direct the widder end into the wind,a crankshaft could be
> attached to the underside of the corkscrew to turn the turbine
> generators.
--------
Air friction will not be an important factor. Again there appears to be a
conception that pressure is the answer. That depends. Before considering
fluid dynamics, please consider a basis in hydrostatics. Also
"crankshafts? -why- not needed for rotary to rotary conversion.
-

> HYDRO OCEAN POWER.
> I dont mean you just put a pipe with a giant scoop on the sea bed and
> let it fill up with water,obviously that would not work,what you do is
> have a giant valve or sluice gate at the end of the pipe near the
> scoop then you open it as fast as possible so that the cheer force of
> the water creats momentum but if this does not work you could have
> another pipe running back out of the power station along the top of
> the other pipe back out to the giant scoop and have it curved into the
> top of the scoop so that the water coming back out of the power
> station forces down into the scoop to keep the momentum and water
> pressure going so that you have perpetual water going in and out of
> the pipes,ITS THAT SIMPLE,and if it works electricity would become
> very cheap,this means everything else would become very cheap so
> people would have more money and crime would come down aswell,all cars
> and all transportation could be powered by electric engines which
> would end most pollution and make transportation costs cheaper so
> everything on sale in the shops would become cheaper aswell.
--------
Nice but it is not that simple- Open the valve( assuming no water on one
side of the valve- and water flows in- guess what- water pressure equalises
and no more happens. You will still end up with a hydrostatic pressure head
on one side of the turbine equal to that on the other side- no flow. There
is no differential head to cause flow. Your feedback fromm the top to the
intake will not work as you indicate- there is no flow to feed back. .
What you have attempted to describe is simply another perpetual motion
device- with all the flaws and fallacies of other such devices. Again, you
are working on a basis of wishful thinking rather than any attempt at
rational physical or engineering analysis. Even if you had no losses and
extracted no energy for other things, at most, all you could do is break
even-what you describe will end up in a static situation.
 One fundamental thing in physics is that there is no free lunch.
In addition, momentum, pressure, energy are (surprise) all different things. 

-- 
Don Kelly
dhky@peeshaw.ca
remove the urine to answer
>
> Gordon Muir.
> >
> > Sorry Gordon- 100%efficiency is not possible. There will always be
losses.
> > Secondly- why do you think a corkscrew propeller would be better than
> > existing turbines  which are typically about 95% efficient?.  Certainly
not
> > on the basis of engineering and physical principles. Thirdly-your seabed
> > scoop idea has been broached before- and variations of this have cropped
> > up. -all unworkable-though some harder to prove so. . Is your thinking
based
> > on any knowledge of the physics involved? From what you have written, it
> > does not.
> > I mentioned Bernouli before- wrong principle-sorry. Try "hydrostatics"
or
> > Pascal. Simply putting a tube with a scoop in  water will not do
anything.
> > You are not increasing pressure in any way.
> > -- 
> > Don Kelly
> > dhky@peeshaw.ca
> > remove the urine to answer
> >
> > --------snip----------
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Gordon Muir" <gordonmuir2003google@yahoo.com> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > news:81f1ac17.0408081147.140422e0@posting.google.com...
> > > > > > > > > I have a hydro ocean power idea that works by putting a
giant
> > > >  scoop
> > > >  on
> > > > > > > > > the sea floor with a pipe connected to the bottom then
going
> >  along
> >  the
> > > > > > > > > sea floor up to a power generator on land,what happens is
the
> >  water
> > > > > > > > > pressure is concentrated into the scoop like a jet engine
air
> >  intake
> > > > > > > > > and the water pressure in the pipe would be greater than
> >  gravity
> > > >  so
> > > >  it
> > > > > > > > > would be powrful enough to turn the generator then the
water
> >  goes
> >  out
> > > > > > > > > another pipe into the sea,so this would create constant
> >  electric
> >  power
> > > > > > > > > supply cheaper than any other form of power so all the
poor
> >  countries
> > > > > > > > > like Afria could have these power stations,all vehicals
could
> >  get
> > > > > > > > > electric engines and all petrol stations could be turned
into
> >  electric
> > > > > > > > > stations,this would cut nearly all world pollution and
global
> >  warming
> > > > > > > > > and the destruction to the ozone within a year and people
who
> >  live
> >  in
> > > > > > > > > cities like Los Angeles would become healthier.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Some people have told me this would not work but im sure
it
> >  would
> >  work
> > > > > > > > > if designed properly.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > http://www.monolithicdome.com
> > > > > > > > > Tornado and hurricane proof dome buildings.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Gordon Muir.
> > > > > > > > >

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