Re: Wind Power

From: Don Kelly (dhky_at_peeshaw.ca)
Date: 09/03/04 

Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 05:27:04 GMT



-- 
Don Kelly
dhky@peeshaw.ca
remove the urine to answer
"Karl Johanson" <karljohanson@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:KrJZc.301419$J06.110897@pd7tw2no...
> "Don Kelly" <dhky@peeshaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:%uyZc.286828$M95.79161@pd7tw1no...
> >
> > "Karl Johanson" <karljohanson@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> > news:4NUYc.265064$M95.192007@pd7tw1no...
> > > "Don Kelly" <dhky@peeshaw.ca> wrote in message news:1xTYc.275294
> > > > "Karl Johanson" <karljohanson@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>
> > > I was at a public BC Hydro presentation where they compared wind to
gas
> > for
> > > the Island. They dismissed wind as more expensive than gas, but they
> > hadn't
> > > accounted for the cost of the gas, just the generator station. I'd
> prefer
> > > offshore wind (with environmental reviews on prospective sites)backed
by
> > > mainland hydro, to the gas plants, but it would take quite a few
towers.
> > For
> > > a better choice though, we should put in a Candu.
> > ------------
> > The gas plant proposed was a peaking plant- only to handle peak demands.
>
> I must have misunderstood. I thought the plan was to build a baseload
> natural gas plant, rather than adding new high power lines from the
> mainland. (There may be more than one proposal floating about).
--------
>From what I have seen, it was definitely a peaking plant. It is only at peak
periods that energy in excess of what can be transmitted from the mainland
is needed. It would be asinine to use gas for base load when base load hydro
capability is available - as it is.  There appears to be a lot of
misinformation going around.
------------
>
> > In
> > this situation something that can be brought on line quickly  and has
low
> > capital costs has an advantage over plant that has higher capital cost
and
> > lower fuel costs.  In addition, it has to be available at peak
> periods-which
> > cannot be said for wind. Wind would provide energy but most of the time
> this
> > energy would simply reduce demand on the existing hydro system at the
time
> > that wind was available.
>
> Quite so. Wind is supplemental power only. I figured, as you listed, it's
a
> way to reduce hydro usage. Hold back more water for peaking times & dry
> spells.
--------
That is a benefit. It is not always such- i.e wind supplanting hydro at
times when water would otherwise be spilled is not necessarily a benefit. It
is just as likely to occur at such times as when reservoirs are low.
---------
>
> >  There are also problems with offshore wind systems- the same as would
> occur
> > with proposed oil drilling platforms- the weather. In sever conditions,
> > where damage is and loss of service is most likely , repairs could not
be
> > carried out.
>
> Quite so. Installation & eminence of off shore wind generators is no
trivial
> issue (especially if you're talking about more than show boat wind farms).
>
> >Connections to such systems is not a trivial problem either.
>
> Quite so.
>
> > The Candu is a good idea but isn't justified by the load. In the future-
> > maybe- but think of the fuss that that would raise on this island
>
>
> > We do need more lines to the island but the two 500KV lines are not
> > effectively 2 lines as they are taps off a single line between the Peace
> and
> > Vancouver (sure a feed back from the Vancouver direction is no problem
> > but..). To build more transmission capacity then involves much more than
> > just the underwater cables. The DC link into Duncan is old- it could be
> > replaced- but then it is necessary to obtain more right of way through
the
> > most expensive part of the country and the part which is next to the
> island
> > in population of environmentalists.
>
> The Candu would likely mean they don't need to spend the money replacing
the
> 500 kv lines, nor build the proposed new ones. It's more power on the
> mainland, fix the 500 kv lines and add new lines: or build a natural gas
> plant, build a pipeline from the mainland fix the 500 kv lines and pay for
> all the natural gas (which has gone up in price recently): or build a
Candu
> facility & not fix the old lines, nor build new ones from the mainland.
Set
> the Candu site up so that new reactors can be added as needed. The
> environmental impact of the Candu wouldn't be zero, of course, but as you
> say, environmentalists have a problem with cable projects, and they also
> have a problem with a gas pipeline.
---------
A Candu is an option but one that cannot be realised without approximately a
10 year lead time. Do we have that? Secondly, a 250MW Candu is a joke. An
economical plant will weigh in at the 1000MW level- well above the needs of
the Island for (I hope) a long time. You also don't want a Candu sitting
there doing peaking duty or operating at 50% load factor. That is not where
it fits into any form of economic resource allocation or dispatch. Export to
the mainland (and US)would be needed and would compete with our
hydro -possible. This brings us back to the transmission capability
problems.
There are well defined ways to determine a generation mix which best
satisfies needs, economics and pollution concerns, now and in the future.
These methods require a lot of information which neither you nor I have.
Is our govenment doing the right thing- not really. No one in government or
in the present higher echelons of BC Hydro have any understanding of power
utilities as opposed to grocery stores.
 >
> Protestors seem to not like wind energy either, which is why I brought up
> nuclear. It's easier to afford to build in spite of protests when you're
> building a gigawatt (90% cap factor, baseload) at a time, compared to
> affording it when you're building a megawatt (25% cap factor,
supplemental)
> at a time. Ah, but the NDP don't like nuclear & the Liberals don't seem to
> like anything built in Canada (maybe they'd buy an American made nuclear
> power plant as long as it cost more than a Candu).
--------------
Baseload plant vs peaking plant choices can be relatively clearcut- the
requirements some 10 +years down the road are the major factors. As to the
government- I agree - whether NDP or Liberal, decisions are based on
ignorance. The bigger the decision- the greater the ignorance. As to BC
Hydro- a lot of their expertise has now retired or gone elsewhere leaving
MBA's to make the decisions- again based on ignorance.
Cheers
Don
> > > Vancouver Island's new tiny (one meg or so) landfill gas plant at
> > Heartland
> > > Road landfill was a good idea. Trivial amounts of power, but the gas
was
> > > being flared anyway. I wouldn't mind a small biomass plant as well
(with
> > > static precipitators & all) fuelled by all the Scotch Broom.
> > ---------
> > Now that is a really renewable source! Alternatively Lasquiti island
seems
> > to have a crop that is occasionally burned by the RCMP- harness it.
>
> Quite so. Biomass is very far from the cleanest power we have (in spite of
> the claims of the 'marijuana will save the world' crowd), but if you're
> burning it anyway, get power from it. I'd have suggested composting the
> scotch broom, but the seeds tend to survive composting (unless they
> irradiate it, which isn't a bad idea either).
>
> Karl Johanson
>
>

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