Re: Norwgeian taxpayers

From: Eunometic (eunometic_at_yahoo.com.au)
Date: 09/16/04

  • Next message: General Reply: "Re: Tesla lighted 25 miles of lamps without wires" 
    Date: 15 Sep 2004 19:41:40 -0700

    "Tim O'Flaherty" <pinwheels_Fudge_@gwi.net> wrote in message news:<zvadnRy9nrDeW93cRVn-uA@gwi.net>...
    > "Ivar S. Ertesvåg" wrote in message ....
    >
    > > About wind power in Norway: The Norwegian Energy Directorate
    > > (governmetal advisory office; www.nve.no) and Norsk Hydro (energy
    > > company, second largest oil company in Norway) estimate the cost of wind
    > > power to approx 0.30 NOK/kWh. (8% interest rate over 20 years).
    >
    > That would be $ .044 US or .036 Euros.

    That is in optimal sites. Because wind power is only avaialble for an
    average of 40% of the time a 2.5MW windmill is required to supply and
    average of 1MW or power.

    This figure you supply is only correct in the situation of
    supplementing up to 10% conventionaly fired power stations. These
    must be over dimensioned by 10% to 20% to retain a 'spining reserve'
    for purposes of network stabillity. It is this reserve that wind
    power can be built to supplement when it is blowing. When there is no
    wind the oversized power stations can fairly quickly buildup to
    provide the power needed to keep the network going.

    However windpower may be generated at 0.044-0.036 Euros it still
    canabalises the payback on conventional produces investment and forces
    up their prices. (they have to pay of their investment banker after
    all) this is also not taken into account by wind proponents. Also
    the conventionaly producers are forced to keep 'steam' on reserve in
    case the wind stops suddenly. This also costs quite a bit. Then
    there is the heavy transmission lines required for these peaky loads
    that windmills produce.

    Finaly if wind power was to supply all of a communities power it would
    require a storage medium. Whether pumped hydro, batteries or hydrogen
    electrolyser/fuel cell combos are used this easily quadrouples the
    cost not only becuase of the 50% efficiency loss but becuase extra
    windmills are needed to make up for the loss due to storage and
    retrieval as well as the cost of the energy storage medium itself.

    This works out to around $5/watt investment. Given that each member
    of a western family requires over 30kw.hr day or 1.25kw on average
    with accounting for a 2kw peak this implies about a $6000-$10000
    investment per head. For the 10 families of about 40 people this
    would imply about $240,000=$400,000. On top of this project
    mangement costs are needed and my costs are only for mega scale
    projects and ignore land use costs.

    It trebbles or quadrouples electricity costs. The true cost of
    producing the electricity is thus not $0.044 to 0.036 but 4 times that
    or $0.176 to 0.144.

    Still not to bad but quite a nasty hit.

    >
    > > Average spot price for electricity this year has been 0.253 NOK/kWh
    > > (Jan-Aug, likely to increase for the remaining year) and for 2003 0.294
    > > NOK/kWh. (www.nordpool.com)
    > >
    > > Average production to power ratio is 3000 hours for present
    > > installations (according to the Norwegian Energy Directorate).
    > >
    > > The state can subsidize 10% of investments in wind power projects
    > > (www.enova.no).
    >
    >
    > From the link above....
    >
    > "Enova SF was officially created on June 22, 2001 and became operational on
    > January 1, 2002. Enova SF is a public enterprise owned by the Royal
    > Norwegian Ministry of Petroleum and Energy."
    >
    >
    > "Enova SF`s main mission is to contribute to environmentally sound and
    > rational use and production of energy, relying on financial instruments and
    > incentives to stimulate market actors and mechanisms to achieve national
    > energy policy goals. "
    >
    > This was similar to the path President Carter put us on, and which
    > president Reagan diverted us from, here in the US.
    >
    > While some in sci.energy would decry this as "neo stalinist" intervention
    > by the government it looks like sound energy policy to me. Cheap oil won't
    > always be here but the wind will.
    >
    > Regards,
    > Tim O

  • Next message: General Reply: "Re: Tesla lighted 25 miles of lamps without wires"

    Relevant Pages

    • FIGHTING FOR ENERGY INDEPENDENCE
      ... Fighting for America's Energy Independence ... The so-called wind production tax credit Dorgan was ... with power capacity equivalent to that of roughly six ... Costs and True Costs ...
      (sci.physics)
    • FIGHTING FOR ENERGY INDEPENDENCE
      ... Fighting for America's Energy Independence ... The so-called wind production tax credit Dorgan was ... with power capacity equivalent to that of roughly six ... Costs and True Costs ...
      (sci.energy)
    • Re: John K. Sutherland demolishes the economics of wind power.
      ... who believe that wind power is a key to any rational social ... If each windmill were to operate at full power for the entire year, ... nuclear or coal, or hydro. ... Similar projects with similar very high costs relative to nuclear ...
      (sci.energy)
    • Re: Global Warming >
      ... Solar energy may be harvested in several wayshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_updraft_tower. ... Wind power harvest is ... the United States has added more wind energy to its grid than ...
      (rec.aviation.piloting)
    • John K. Sutherland demolishes the economics of wind power.
      ... who believe that wind power is a key to any rational social ... If each windmill were to operate at full power for the entire year, ... the operators are obviously assuming that these windmills will ... Similar projects with similar very high costs relative to nuclear ...
      (sci.energy)
    Loading